Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Adlam

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 04:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

William Adlam[edit]

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No reliable sources have been found for any of this, and the comments in the three PRODs on this version show that specific claims about HMS Victory and the Library of Congress fail to check out; see also discussion on the talk page. The PRODs were removed without comment or explanation. The article author Bozzer (talk · contribs) edited only in 2006, and almost all his edits were to do with the name "Adlam", including Adrian Adlam and an article deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boris Adlam; it is possible that this is not a hoax but is based on unpublished family records or traditions, but either way it fails WP:V and we can't keep it with no sources. JohnCD (talk) 21:33, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. JohnCD (talk) 21:35, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. JohnCD (talk) 21:35, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:34, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete If you can't find anything on a Major General then i gotta start question the article authenticity. Additionally, since there are no sources in the article, he fails the blp criteria for inclusion (albeit this one would've been grandfathered in), but that could give grounds for a speedy deletion rather than an afd. FYI: Leave the prod tag on, after 7 days we can delete it on csd grounds as an expired prod. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The PROD was removed, and per WP:PROD it can't be replaced, we have to go the AfD route; and it's not a BLP, because those are about living people, and this one died in 1823. JohnCD (talk) 22:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment No records of him in Fold3 or Newspapers.com.- NQ (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There's evidence of an Adlam in the company in question, ( http://revwar75.com/library/rees/40th.htm are selections from a book held at the Library of Congress - but I doubt that's sufficient to give notability. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 22:38, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good, the dates fit, and that provides a source for the second paragraph of the article, but we need more. JohnCD (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be John E. Adlam - John Erasmus Adlam [1] [2] [3] elsewhere as John Edward Adlam [4]- NQ (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bulk of the article can be sourced to, and copied verbatim from - Western Historical Co (1881). History of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Western historical Company. pp. 489, 490. - NQ (talk) 23:20, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can only see a few lines of that, about a Samuel Adlam b.1816, presumably a grandson. Is there a way to access more of p.489? JohnCD (talk) 23:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the screenshot and a copy - Sources for him being an artist. [5] p76 - NQ (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

~~There is some ambiguity regarding the name, but from what I can gather - Promoted from Lieutenant to Captain of the 40th in 1775. [6]~~In 1780, painted "The Situation of His Majesty’s Ship Ambuscade,off the Island of Jersey, the 15th of November 1779." p76. Became major on 12 October 1787 and then Lieutenant-colonel on 1 March 1794. Retired: September 1795. p5During the Napoleonic Wars, he fought alongside Lord Nelson in the battles of Copenhagen and Trafalgar. He served as a Major under Lords Washington and Napier. Made Major-general in 1820, and died in 1823. [7] I'm leaning towards Keep. - NQ (talk) 00:48, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oracle and Public Advertiser (London, England), Thursday, September 11, 1794 mentions a William Adlam of the Marines being promoted to Major. - NQ (talk) 04:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That must be a different man - the subject of the article was already a Lieutenant Colonel in 1780. JohnCD (talk) 09:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For a senior army officer (already Lt.Col. in 1780), what was he doing spending so much time at sea? He is said to have been with Nelson at naval battles that took place in 1794, 1798, 1801, 1805. JohnCD (talk) 23:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is this - bibliophile.net/books/w_adlam_the_situation_of_his_majesty's_ship_ambuscade_off_the_island_of_jersey_the_15th_of_november_.htm (domain blacklisted) (copy). "The artist, William Adlam, was a British naval officer who served in both the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. During the latter, he often served with Lord Nelson, including the Battle of Trafalgar" - NQ (talk) 23:48, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Army officers serving as Marines on shipboard had Army ranks, much like the present day Marines. all large ships, and all flagships in particular, had substantial detachment of Marines, partly for ordinary military purposes, and partly to maintain discipline among the sailors DGG ( talk ) 00:00, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but they would be commanded by a relatively junior officer. This muster roll of HMS Victory's crew at Trafalgar shows about 150 marines commanded by Captain Adair - army rank, equivalent to naval lieutenant. It does not show any Adlam. Captain Adair is also mentioned (and Adlam is not) in Eye-Witnesses to Nelson's Battles, ed. James Hewitt. JohnCD (talk) 11:58, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A Captain William Adlam is listed as the commander of the marines in the Spithead mutiny. [8] link - NQ (talk) 19:32, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Summary so far: this is evidently not a hoax, and I have removed the hoax tag. However, there are still serious inconsistencies:

the claim that he was on board Victory at Trafalgar is not borne out by the muster roll. Also, I have a book of the accounts of Eye-witnesses to Nelson's Battles and if he was really present at four of them in a reasonably senior capacity one might have expected some reference, though its absence is certainly not conclusive.
the dates, Lt-Col. in 1780 but promoted to Major in 1794. Are there possibly two different William Adlams?

Apart from the 1780/Lt. Col./Voltaire sentence, the article is evidently based on the 1881 History of Milwaukee source that NQ has found, but is that really a RS? The information for it was presumably provided by William Adlam's son Samuel. I wonder whether the old soldier's reminiscences became expanded and exaggerated over the years and in family tradition? Samuel was only 7 when his father died.

My conclusion at this stage: there was such a person but, in view of the inconsistencies, I don't think we have solid enough sourcing for an article, so I am not withdrawing my nomination. JohnCD (talk) 14:57, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, judging by this preface and the review here, the History of Milwaukee source does not seem to be reliable. - NQ (talk) 19:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. There was a Lieutenant-Colonel Adlam. There was also a Royal Marines officer, Captain (later Major) William Adlam, who was an artist and whose widow died in 1849. To be honest I can't find enough on either to make a sustainable article, but I'm incling towards a "keep". There may be offline sources. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Andreas Philopater: This article is mostly based on the account of Captain Samuel John George Adlam [9], son of William Adlam and Grace Adlam. [10]. Good catch on the second painting. This mentions his name as William May Adlam. - NQ (talk) 23:17, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@NQ: Given that the catalogue entries for the other prints have "Capt." and this one has "May", I'm tempted to see that as a typo (or misreading) for "Maj." I'm rather wondering whether William Adlam doesn't conflate a number of Adlams. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Either the subject isn't notable or the article isn't well-enough sourced to clear up inconsistencies. It doesn't make sense to retain this article. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:16, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per all of the above. - NQ (talk) 11:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the Samuel John George Adlam who is the putative source for much of this says his grandfather was "Governor of Halifax". Clearly he wasn't Governor of Nova Scotia, but could he have been head of the garrison in Halifax or something along those lines? The first public park in Canada was "Adlam's Garden" in Halifax. Online I can find nothing about the history of the park beyond the name. Admittedly this might be a wild goose chase, but I still suspect there may be undigitised sources that would establish notability. Any Canadians reading this? --Andreas Philopater (talk) 12:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Much of the article content is factually incorrect and it has not been possible to verify the rest. There is a real possibility that nothing in the article as it stands is actually correct. The fact that there were other people of the same name does not make me think that this article necessarily has verifiable content. While I am generally a hard line inclusionist, I am even more hard line on verifiability. It's a delete from me. Greenshed (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SpinningSpark 17:16, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by nominator: another summary of where I think we are, after remarkable achievements in digging up sources. The article is evidently based on the Milwaukee County History found by NQ, but as the review of that book says, books of this type were compiled from accounts of their families given by subscribers, leading to "claims of famous ancestors, and exaggerated military service".

Independently of that source, there are several records of an Adlam in the 40th Foot, but one of them gives no first name and the other three are John. There are also several records, dating from 1779 to 1797, of a William Adlam who was a Captain or Major of Marines and was an artist, and an 1849 death notice of the "widow of Major Adlam R.M."

The claim that he was with Nelson at Trafalgar is not borne out by the Victory's muster-roll, and the claim that he became a major-general has no independent source, and is contradicted by the widow's death notice.

The only confirmed facts we have are that William Adlam was a Major of Marines and an artist. That is not enough to support an article. JohnCD (talk) 21:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent summary. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 21:39, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per summary above. Also, this article at present has zero sources. Jsharpminor (talk) 04:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.