Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westfield Innaloo (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Procedural close as keep. This AfD was out of process given that the nominator did not provide grounds for deleting the articles, and actually advocated keeping them all. The number of articles listed was also excessive: it would be difficult for editors to individually assess the notability of each shopping centre as part of this nomination, or for a closing admin to figure out what the consensus for each centre is. Discussions concerning the notability of these shopping centres can be conducted without going to AfD.. Nick-D (talk) 22:15, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Westfield Innaloo[edit]

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This is an advisory batch nomination. I personally don't think any of these should be deleted, but I think I'm in the minority, based on the results at Westfield Mount Druitt -- 60,088 m², 240 stores, converted to a redirect December 2012 per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westfield Mount Druitt, reiterated 2017 per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westfield Mount Druitt (2nd nomination), and Westfield Penrith -- 91,701 m², 338 stores, converted to redirect December 2012‎ per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westfield Penrith.

So rather than picking at these one by one at random let's see if we can come up with some kind of rational decision on the class as a whole -- delete/merge/redirect 'em all, keep 'em all, or delete some and keep others (but by some non-random criteria).

Articles under consideration, chosen because they are listed in the template {{Westfield Australia}} (and also in List of Westfield shopping centres in Australia), in ascending order of area:

Westfield Innaloo -- 47,030 m², 171 stores
Westfield Geelong -- 52,000 m², 187 stores
Westfield Plenty Valley -- 53,845 m², 183 stores
Westfield Airport West -- 54,777 m², 162 stores see note below
(Westfield Mount Druitt at 60,088 m², 240 stores would fit here)
Westfield Hurstville -- 61,928 m², 259 stores
Westfield Woden -- 62,000 m², 260 stores
Westfield Helensvale -- [don't know] m², 239 stores
Westfield Burwood -- 63,614 m², 240 stores
Westfield Kotara -- 68,660 m2, 256 stores
Westfield West Lakes -- 71,000 m², 260 stores
Westfield North Lakes -- [don't know] m², 274 stores
Westfield Whitford City -- 76,463 m², 299 stores
Westfield Chatswood -- 80,852 m², 282 stores
Westfield Tuggerah -- 82,274 m², 267 stores
Westfield Carousel -- 82,464 m², 293 stores
Westfield Liverpool -- 83,365 m2, 340 stores
Westfield Eastgardens -- 84,627 m², 303 stores
(Westfield Penrith, at 91,701 m², 338 stores would fit here)
Westfield Belconnen -- 94,718 m², 287 stores
Westfield Tea Tree Plaza -- 95,332 m², 245 stores
Westfield Hornsby -- 99,830 m², 335 stores
Westfield Doncaster -- 120,000 m², 400 stores
Westfield Bondi Junction -- 126,895 m2, 499 stores
Westfield Miranda -- 127,000 m², 396 stores
Westfield Southland -- 129,180 m², 400 stores
Westfield Warringah Mall -- 132,066 m², 385 stores
Westfield Carindale -- 136,373 m², 443 stores
Westfield Marion -- 136,778 m², 341 stores
Westfield Parramatta -- 137,407 m², 498 stores
Westfield Knox -- 141,934 m², 409 stores
Westfield Garden City -- 142,835 m², 402 stores
Westfield Chermside -- 150,733 m², 400 stores
Westfield Sydney -- 167,911 m², 361 stores
Westfield Fountain Gate -- 177,755 m², 464 stores

-- Herostratus (talk) 17:38, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(I just noted when I made this that per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westfield Innaloo, Westfield Innaloo (the smallest mall on this list) was kept in 2006. So if some are being redirected and some kept according to who's paying attention at the moment, which seems possible, all the more reason to sort this out and get this put to bed once and for here.) Herostratus (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(P.P.S: By coincidence Westfield Airport West is concurrently being discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westfield Airport West.)

Keep all as nom. It's not 1917 anymore, so a lot of the life of the people is tied in with malls, for good or ill, rather than their town centers anymore. The economic life especially, but also the personal and cultural life. They are equivalent to towns (and we keep articles for even the smallest towns). During the day they are inhabited by thousands. It's true that people don't sleep there at night, but "people sleeping there" is actually one of the least important and interesting things about a town. And at these malls occur do most of the other, interesting and important, activities that people do in towns -- shop, work, flirt, eat, hang out, etc.

Even the smallest of these, Westfield Innaloo, has stores equivalent to the center of a large town and is inhabited every day by thousands of people. It's been in use by Perthians for half a century and has a 375-seat restaurant (called a "food court"). The article has ten refs and IMO probably meets WP:GNG, is 6,211 bytes with 4 images, and is a perfectly fine article, not promotional poorly written or anything. Since it's a perfectly fine article why throw it away. That is not how we grow as a reference work. And that's the smallest one. (Westfield Geelong, the next smallest, has 14 refs and and a fine 13,397-byte article which among much else describes the history of its site (smack center of the city of Geelong) from the 1850s.)

(Granted though that a number of the articles aren't as good or as well ref'd and don't meet GNG which is not to necessarily say the couldn't, although I don't know; but at any rate all are ref'd to non-GNG-eligible sources (e.g. the company itself) sufficient to make a decent short article.)

Another reason to keep all is that "delete all" (or "redirect all" or "merge all") doesn't seem in the cards: (Westfield Fountain Gate is the second largest mall in Australia, so "delete/redirect/merge all" would essentially imply largely clearing out Category:Shopping centres in Australia, and indeed Category:Shopping malls itself... which is many thousands of articles, and I don't think we want do that (others may disagree). But if you don't want to delete all, where do you draw the line? 60,000 m²? 80,000 m²? 100,000 m² or higher (as the fate of Westfield Penrith seems to imply)? 20 years of existence? 5 large anchor stores? Currently ref'd to meet GNG? 3,000-byte+ article? Drawing some line like that is defensible I suppose, but seems quite arbitrary. Herostratus (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all I don't think a batch nomination is appropriate here. These shopping centres need to be nominated individually if it's felt they should be deleted, as they all essentially have different levels of, and reasons for, notability. The number of stores and area is really irrelevant to notability. A shopping centre could have one store and still be notable. Westfield Kotara, for example, was the first shopping centre outside the Newcastle CBD when it was opened as Kotara Fair in 1965 with 27 stores, and drove a lot of development in the area, and still does. This is not explained in the article because 50-year-old sources are hard to come by. Westfield Airport West really shouldn't be included, as it's already under discussion at another AfD. That said, I am convinced by Herostratus' reasoning for a keep vote. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all I have one comment. I did a uni project about a Westfield shopping centre in 2013 and was able to find a reasonable amount of historical sources including an official 188 page history published in 2010. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 20:17, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all. Totally inappropriate batch nomination: the only thing these have in common is that they're owned by the same company, which has absolutely nothing to do with their notability (and Westfield tend to buy more notable shopping centres, not less). The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all. Bizarre nomination as each shopping mall article is notable because of independent coverage, not because they are associated with the Westfield Brand. Individual articles that do not appear to meet the notability requirements can be nominated individually. This batch nomination makes no sense at all. Ajf773 (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.