Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wars of national liberation

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No consensus to delete, that much is certain. The "merge" or "keep" discussion may continue on the article talk page.  Sandstein  18:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Wars of national liberation

• Wars of national liberation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I stumbled upon this very odd page and attempted to improve it before posting this for discussion. I really do mean discussion.

The page already has a neutrality tag. Entirely appropriate, in my opinion.

Problem 1) The chief problem with this page is that the category is vast: Wars of national liberation. Wars, both successful and un- that fall under this rburic have been going on since antiquity. We could, of course, have a page that would list them all. I began an attempt to improve it by listing more wars, but, what would be the point? Is there a page that lists all civil wars? or all wars of imperial conquest? Why should there be a page merely listing all wars of national liberation?

Problem 2) As it was when I found it an hour ago (perhaps the proper etiquette is to put it back as it was?) It was far from scholarly or objective. It was, rather, a tendentious piece of work in which Wars of liberation from certain empires were privileged and from other empires omitted. It was full of broad, unsubstantiated generalizations. And contained little of substance beyond lists of wars linking to articles already on Wikipedia.

I am new at this. I don't see the use of this article. I am eager to hear the opinions of others.Historicist (talk) 01:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Historicist

• Keep - work needed, to be sure. That's not a criterion for deletion. Otherwise, notable concept with good information (though incomplete and poorly organised). I could believe there's a merge target, but that's not an AfD issue. WilyD 14:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Delete/Drastically Cut to Stub As a list, this is going to be indiscriminate and should be deleted, or we're going to list every ethnically-driven civil conflict in history. The concept of a war of national liberation, in the context of political justifications for war, as it's emerged in the last 200 years or so, is notable and worthy of an entry. But the article's current content is of the list variety, rather than a serious exploration of the concept. RayAYang (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- RayAYang (talk) 14:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. -- RayAYang (talk) 14:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Merge to War of Independence. Mangoe (talk) 15:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Merge as suggested by Mangoe. This will need a new section for "Continuing Independence Wars". However the present article is poorly constructed and most of it must be removed. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Mergeas suggested by Mangoe.Historicist (talk) 21:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Historicist
• Keep as suggested by Wily. This article could use plenty of work, and as Historicist mentioned, it has an appropriate neutrality tag. It also has some historic errors and omissions. ----DanTD (talk) 06:54, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia already has an article on War of Independence, listing the wars of national liberaton. And an article on Decolonization, addressing the relevent concepts. I am puzzled to understand what an article on Wars of National Liberation should include that is not already on those pages. Historicist (talk) 12:54, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Historicist

Yes, I saw that. I'm not so sure all those wars belong on that list. The term "War of National Liberation" is a common one that is sometimes used appopriatley, but not always. Having said that, I'm perfectly willing to consider a merge or even a split. ----DanTD (talk) 03:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Keep per WilyD and DanTD. It needs work yes, but it's a notable topic in its own rights. The article on Wars of Independence seems to be a list linking to other articles and not a discussion of the subject. Besides which, not all national liberation movements wage wars for independence in the form of state sovereignty. Some do solely for autonomous self-rule within an existing federation. In other words, I am not sure that wars of "national liberation" can always be synonyms for wars of "independence". The fact remains that there are numerous scholarly sources discussing the subject and a good article covering the topic would benefit the encyclopedia. Tiamut^talk 12:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we are confined by the current state of wars of independence to leave it as lust a list. Mangoe (talk) 14:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. However, that does not address the second point I raised which is that not all wars of national liberation have as their aim independence (i.e. in the form of a nation-state). The definition given in this source for example, notes that a state may be the goal or that it may "involve resistance by various peoples against domination, exclusion, persecution, or dispossession of lands or resources, by the post-colonial state," without statehood in mind. Wars of Independence have independent statehood as their goal. Wars of national liberation may not. A state is not necessary to the pursuit of self-determination in every case. Tiamut^talk 17:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.