Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tropical Storm Colin (2022)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to 2022 Atlantic hurricane season. Per consensus from established editors. History is under the redirect if there is material that needs merging. Star Mississippi 19:51, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tropical Storm Colin (2022)[edit]

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Tropical Storm Colin (2022) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Does not pass WP:Notability or WP:NWeather guidelines. Caused no damage and a single indirect fatality. Can be merged into 2022 Atlantic hurricane season. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked sockpuppet
Keep - affected the US, killed one person, and formed over land. Also decently sized. Hurricane Su (talk) 21:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Nowhere does the NHC assess Colin as "decently sized." Its TCR does state that it "was a short-lived tropical storm that formed offshore." Drdpw (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Decently sized article Hurricane Chandler (talk) 23:18, 18 November 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock. HurricaneEdgar 13:50, 26 November 2022 (UTC) [reply]
Hurricane Su - Article size does not dictate notability whatsoever. Also the fatality was an indirect fatality as listed per NHC. It also formed over water, not land. Not sure where your logic to keep the article is actually coming from since there is no explanation as to why it passed WP:Notability OR WP:NWEATHER. Elijahandskip (talk) 23:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
though I may be neutral. im more to the Keep side. Brown ocean effect is not that common, but colin performed the effect, it has other stuff like 1 person killed and affected the US as User:Hurricane Su stated Rainbow Galaxy POC (talk) 21:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
and another example is Tropical Storm Danny (2021), i know it did only 5k damages, but it caused 0 deaths. 5k damages is barely anything if it was caused by a tropical cyclone, and 0 deaths means nobody died. Colin did no damages, but it actually did 1 death. which may be equal to Danny, yet Tropical Storm Danny (2021) Still has a article. colin even performed a brown ocean effect Rainbow Galaxy POC (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: No brown ocean effect was noted in connection with Colin. Drdpw (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes i agree Hurricane Su (talk) 22:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock. HurricaneEdgar 13:50, 26 November 2022 (UTC) [reply]
Just noting that I just nominated Tropical Storm Danny (2021) for deletion for similar reasons and an extra reason. I’m not sure which guideline specifically it is, but basically notability isn’t determined based on “This has an article, so this should as well”. (Someone who remembers it can drop a wikilink to it below.) Elijahandskip (talk) 22:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikilink: WP:OSE. Sarrail (talk) 13:50, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That’s it! Thank you Sarrail! So Hurricane Su & Rainbow Galaxy POC, you can read that guideline, WP:OSE, which says to avoid discussions like “What about article X” and “ There's an article on x, and this is just as famous as that.” Basically saying Tropical Storm Danny (2021) exists means absolutely nothing in terms of this discussion. Elijahandskip (talk) 14:36, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Redirect from previous statement. The impacts and meteorological history may fit into the main article, 2022 Atlantic hurricane season. I don't see a lot of sources outside of the NHC and NWS, although the sources provided do not have significant coverage of Colin. Eh, taking a look at the Colin's TCR, I do not see much impacts, considering the fact that there were no tornadoes in association with Colin and There were no reports of damage or flooding due to storm surge. And for the rainfall? I only see minor flooding, even though 3-7 inches of rain fell. Sarrail (talk) 21:55, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to take the time to reconsider. I know 1 indirect death and no damages aren't enough for an article, but let me state something here. Tagging along with Timtrent, Colin caught NHC's forecasters by surprise. No question. And Colin had already been inland when the first advisory was issued. Additionally, Colin was the last named storm before a very quiet August. And August is typically the time when multiple storms formed. Colin also cancelled multiple planned 4th of July celebrations, such as events in the Carolinas.
I'm trying not to peek into WP:OSE, I'm trying not to!
Colin also did affect the US. I know, I know we're going to yak about the fact that Colin didn't cause any damage and cause one, if not direct, indirect death. But, it cancelled events planned. Local news outlets state that an indirect death occurred when a 52-year-old man drowned in North Carolina. Makes sense to me. Sources prove that an indirect death occurred. I'd also check out the fact that Colin's formation caught forecasters by surprise, but never noted in the TCR. However, I'd like to point out that several reliable sources, including the Washington Post, as well as the NY Times, have noted this, yet again, although the TCR has not stated this. This isn't some arbitrary "Ooh, Colin caught forecasters by surprise! And no damages and 1 indirect fatality has occurred, and we're deleting this because this random, weak, tropical storm isn't notable!" It's not. It's because other primary and secondary sources have stated this, like the evidence presented above, NY Times and the Washington Post.
I would also state something in reference to Timtrent's response. They quoted,"For record-breaking storms or storms which are otherwise historical however non-impactful, academic coverage of the event or an analysis by a weather agency helps establish notability." This also has an agreement with me. Catching forecasters by surprise isn't a common thing. Forecasters track storms, mark disturbances on the hurricanes.gov website, all kinds of stuff. But Colin was relatively unnoticed and caught forecasters by surprise. And by the time they released their first advisory on the system, it was just inland. And repeating this again: This isn't a common thing.
I've reached the point where I've reached a conclusion. Colin may be resolved as keep. Per the evidence presented above. Sarrail (talk) 00:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sarrail: You would do well to remember that Wikipedia, WPTC or WPWX are not biased towards the US and that July 4, 2022 was just a non-notable day to most people where the weather cancelled numerous events around the world. The NHC, WPC and other parts of the US NWS were already tracking the area of low pressure/storm that became Colin and had marked it as a tropical disturbance before it developed. I would also poit out that we regually go for a month or two during the hurricane season without a tropcial cyclone, which as a result does not make the final ssytem before a break notable. Hell there are even montsh that we do not record any tropcial cyclones any where in the world We also have the 2022 Atlantic hurricane season article for a reason. As i said in reply to Timtrent, all that had changed when NHC issued their first advisory was that they had more confidence that it was a tropical storm. I might be more willing to agree that Colin was notable, if some foreign newspaper such as the Fiji Times had noted its existance. The Washington Post and New York TImes do not cut it for me, since they routinely talk about tropical sytems making landfall in the US.Jason Rees (talk) 13:37, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked sockpuppet
Keep - per @Hurricane Su and @Rainbow Galaxy POC. Colin is quite notable, and effected the US. Storms that directly hit the US usually have articles. Minor flooding (stated by @Sarrail) is still flooding. The NHC says no damage due to STORM SURGE, not due to Colin overall. I think Colin is notable enough to stay. Hurricane Chandler (talk) 23:20, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:A few paragraphs after stating no storm surge damage reported, the report states regarding overall damage: There were no reports of damage associated with Colin. Drdpw (talk) 23:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Hurricane Chandler read further in the Tropical Cyclone Report on TS Colin. In the Storm Surge2 section on page 3, it does say “There were no reports of damage or flooding due to storm surge.” However, if you look on page 4 in the CASUALTY AND DAMAGE STATISTICS section, you will notice “There were no reports of damage associated with Colin. However, there was one indirect casualty. The high surf along the South Carolina and North Carolina coasts that was produced while Colin was a tropical cyclone continued into 3 July as strong winds persisted over portions of those waters after the system’s circulation had dissipated. A 52-year-old man drowned at a beach in Oak Island, North Carolina, due to the associated rough surf. So your comment about them not reporting damage from Colin overall is wrong. Also, could you explain how “Colin is quite notable” since there was no damage and 1 indirect fatality? Elijahandskip (talk) 23:42, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Colin was the last atlantic storm to form before a 2 months of inactivity which broke many records. so during the inactivity people could look back at the few storms like colin. It also attacked the US mainland Rainbow Galaxy POC (talk) 01:39, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Landfalling in the US doesn’t really mean anything especially since it caused no damage. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:44, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to 2022 Atlantic hurricane season per TCR statement “The high surf along the South Carolina and North Carolina coasts that was produced while Colin was a tropical cyclone continued into 3 July as strong winds persisted over portions of those waters after the system’s circulation had dissipated. and meet to WP:NOPAGE. HurricaneEdgar 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge / Redirect – Given the lack of notable impact or direct deaths, not to mention the thin coverage of the storm by the media, I believe that the article's preparation and impact information should be merged into the season page (and the page redirected) per the the guidance of WP:NOPAGE and WP:Notability (weather)#Tropical cyclones. Colin's impact and aftermath are insufficiently notable for a standalone article, and its story can and is fully told in the season article. Drdpw (talk) 12:06, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge – I don't think this article is needed as the storm literally did almost nothing, its damages are extremely low and the only reason the storm is somewhat notable is its formation over land, but even this was retracted recently via the TCR. The article itself is quite short due to the storm's weak nature, and as others have said, there aren't many sources for the storm. Sria-72 (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked sockpuppet
Keep - per @Hurricane Su MoldovaballMapping (talk) 18:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Could you explain how Hurricane Su’s answer shows that the storm passes WP:NOPAGE or WP:NWEATHER? Elijahandskip (talk) 18:52, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep it was the last atlantic storm to form before a 2 whole months of inactivity which broke couple of records like no august storms, etc, so during the inactivity people could look back at the very few Atlantic storms that formed in 2022 such as colin Rainbow Galaxy POC (talk) 20:47, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn’t mean anything. One could also say that the first tornadic death in the US in two months means that tornado should be notable enough for an article. Talking about the Sawyerville, Alabama EF2 in early February 2022, when not a single tornadic death happened in January 2022. People obviously looked back at the latest deadly tornadoes back in December 2021, but that does not mean a non-notable EF2 deserves an article just because it was the first before a long period of inactive/non-deadly tornadoes. That logic doesn’t work for determining notability. Elijahandskip (talk) 20:57, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your logic isn’t entirely correct, as tropical cyclones and tornadoes are different. Hurricane Su (talk) 02:44, 21 November 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock. HurricaneEdgar 13:50, 26 November 2022 (UTC) [reply]
The point is sound nonetheless, a non-notable storm does not merit an article just because there was an unusually long timespan between it and the next storm. Drdpw (talk) 05:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like that should just be merged in with the season summary, not exactly Colin related. Hermine really only gets by in my book because it itself was all the way by Africa. Mitch199811 (talk) 18:50, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Honestly, this isn’t a super notable storm, but not exactly sure what merging the article will gain. 63.44.29.199 (talk) 22:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - When we were drafting Wikipedia:Notability (weather), I deliberately threw a line in, advising people to think twice about the overall weather event at times and see if the content is best served elsewhere. In this case, I believe that the content is best served by being included in the 2022 Atlantic hurricane season. I also note that the basic rule of thumb is that a system should have had a significant impact on land, which Colin didnt.Jason Rees (talk) 15:54, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked sockpuppet
Keep - per above. Hurricane Larry (talk) 16:22, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Keep Rainbow Galaxy POC (talk) 17:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Rainbow Galaxy POC and Hurricane Larry: Bear in mind that this AFD is not a vote and that the question that you need to answer is why we should keep the article. As a result, votes such as "Agreed with Keep" generally do not count.Jason Rees (talk) 17:25, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Rainbow Galaxy POC: This is also the third time you have given a "Keep" response to the proposal; beware of overplaying your hand with these multiple !votes. Drdpw (talk) 18:33, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The issue is not whether Colin did damage or not, nor whether it was large, small, long lived or short lived. The issue is whether it passes WP:GNG. The references show that it does. Surely that is the sole requirement, significant coverage in multiple sources independent of the topic? 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 17:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Timtrent Actually, that is somewhat why WP:NWEATHER exists. For all intents and purposes, Colin was similar to a fish storm. No damage and no direct fatalities. Every single tropical cyclone gets multiple independent sources on the topic, but there is no way every single tropical cyclone passes generic notability. I urge you to reconsider under WP:NWEATHER instead of WP:GNG. Elijahandskip (talk) 17:49, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Elijahandskip I'm grateful for the education. I will read further and may or may not change my opinion. For the present my opinion stands 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 17:51, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A really good example of this is by searching “Tropical Depression Eleven” 2022 in Google. When I did that, it pulled up 6 pages of sources (so easily 50+) in the news tab, that said, Tropical Depression Eleven lasted 2 days in the middle of the Atlantic with no impacts to land. Per the WP:GNG sources section, that system would easily pass with dozens of reliable sources. But for long-term notability, the system does not pass that. That is the main reason we have the section about “fish storms” not being notable. In this circumstance, Tropical Storm Colin did impact land, but it cause no damage, so there is not really a difference between Tropical Storm Colin or Tropical Depression Eleven in terms of long-term notability. Elijahandskip (talk) 17:55, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Elijahandskip I have made further study. To me, the significant element is The formation of Colin caught forecasters by surprise and Colin was already inland when the first advisory was issued., which suggests that Colin is notable for that reason. I note or storms which are otherwise historical however non-impactful, from NWEATHER, and feel that this is satisfied by the blue (referenced) statement. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 17:58, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I will at least note that the National Hurricane Center provided a good synoptic history (basically storm history) on Colin and they did not mention being surprised. That section of the Wikipedia article is however cited by a few reliable sources like this article from the Washington Post. I am glad and respect that you looked back at it and decided based on a valid reason besides using WP:OSE reasons like most of the other Keep !votes were. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Timtrent: I do not bye that just because the NHC were somewhat surprised that this area of low pressure had developed into a tropical storm before it made landfall makes it notable or gives it histroical significance. At the end of the day, the system was already being monitored by NHC, local weather offices as well as the Weather Prediction Centre and all that changed is that NHC had more confidence that it was a tropical storm.Jason Rees (talk) 13:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and Redirect Killing one person is not enough of a reason to have an article. And now that we know it did not form because of BOE, which was what the article was barely hanging onto, there is not much else to talk about other than 4th of July in the Carolina's. --Mitch199811 (talk) 18:43, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Colin was very surprising to the NHC, and by the time it moved inland, the NHC had not even issued its first advisory. Above, @Sarrail goes in this in depth. Hurricane Chandler (talk) 22:56, 25 November 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock. HurricaneEdgar 13:50, 26 November 2022 (UTC) [reply]
    @Hurricane Chandler: Moving on inlands is not notable, and even surprising the NHC is not enough to become an article (WP:NOPAGE), “Does other information provide needed context? Sometimes, a notable topic can be covered better as part of a larger article, where there can be more complete context that would be lost on a separate page. However, tropical cyclones can form year-round. HurricaneEdgar 01:31, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked sockpuppet
Keep - per @Sarrail (after reconsidering) Lilac Trench (talk) 23:07, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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