Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tim Coons

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Rocket Records. There is a broad consensus in the discussion that currently the article fails WP:GNG as there is an insufficient number of independent reliable sources. Whereas only one user voted to redirect, this can not really harm, and could potentially help to take some info from the current version of the article and to expand Rocket Records with this info.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tim Coons[edit]

Tim Coons (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Totally rubbish references, blogs and what not, Coons is only mentioned fleetingly in about two, plus most are blogs, WP:INHERIT applies, does not appear to pass WP:GNG in his own right, Google brings up all the usual suspects LinkedIn, MySpace, own website and so on. CaptainScreebo Parley! 23:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Totally rubbish references" is not only your opinion, it is indeed factually incorrect, as there are no LinkedIn, MySpace, or blog references in the article. Also, a simple web search does indeed bring up numerous article references and other legitimate sources. Coons clearly passes WP:GNG in his own right, no question about it. I kindly suggest that you request to delete articles that actually are not appropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia, unlike the article about Coons. Zachtron (talk) 03:47, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Zach, you're new here, editing under your username for 13 days, and I suggest you learn some of the core policies and guidelines before removing an AfD template and leaving the edit summary "Possible vandalism"[1]. I also suggest you try reading (and understanding) what a reliable source is, and what significant coverage means, notably "To count as "significant coverage", a cited reference must be about the subject – addressing the subject directly in detail, and more than a trivial mention".
"Rubbish references", not blogs, let's see, ref1 goes to an empty last.fm profile page in French, refs 2,6,8, and 10 either have blog or blogspot in the URL, ref 3 merely corroborates the fact that NKOTB were one of the biggest boy bands (no Coons), ref 9 doesn't mention him either, ref 5 is a random collection of images from a Google search[2], which leaves refs 4 and 7 which are totally not about Coons, and where he gets a cursory mention (a couple of words to a whole sentence).
Finally, please read more carefully, I said "Google brings up all the usual suspects LinkedIn, MySpace" etc. See here. I will now post this over at my talk as well (with an added comment or two). CaptainScreebo Parley! 09:12, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please note; I have now added 4 new references to the article which even further emphasizes that the article continues to meet all BLP, notability, and encyclopedic standards for its continued inclusion in Wikipedia. As a leader of WikiProject Record Labels, I kindly ask that you not impede our progress, as we have numerous editors tediously making sure that all articles are up to full Wikipedia standards. Thank you. Zachtron (talk) 05:19, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh sorry, when I click to Last.fm it detects my country and defaults to French, look at the profile, see the button at the bottom that says "Edit this bio", as Richard says below this is not reliable as anyone could change it and say he managed Motörhead as well. 09:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete. I really don't see any of the references supporting the assertion that Coons helped the Backstreet Boys or NSYNC. I can't find any third-party sources to that effect, and without those his notability is seriously in question. The Last.fm wiki, supporting the fact that he was nominated for Grammys, is also not reliable. If better, reliable references asserting notability can be found, then I will retract my vote and my remarks, however, I can't in good faith find any. Thanks, Richard Yetalk 08:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep.
I think you should click on this link
this link — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zachtron (talk • contribs) 15:07, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
and this link as well:

I am sending you to these links there so that you can clearly see that it is beyond obvious that not only does Coons meet notability guidelines, he is active with multiple celebrity music acts as well as non-music celebrities. His work on Backstreet Boys member Howie Dorough's album (for which there is also a very recent photo of Coons and Dorough together working in studio together) further helps to emphasize Coons' strong notability. He also won a Diamond Award (over 10 million albums sold) for his work on the Backstreet Boys first album, so that is extremely notable. Again though, here is a very solid reference as of this week regarding Coons: http://thekaylabeckershow.com/?p=860 The Kayla Becker show is having this national interview on the air next week as a matter of fact, in coordination with the 20th anniversary of the Backstreet Boys, for which Coons was directly responsible for helping to create and still produces music for to this day. Zachtron (talk) 14:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Some possible sources for this subject, unfortunately all most behind a paywall. 1 Palm Beach Daily News, April 27, 2007, article entitled "BALL IN THE HOUSE SETS ITS OWN PACE". 2 Orlando Senitel, July 18, 2001. article entitled "SONGWRITERS' SHOWCASES WILL OPEN AT TABU‎". This one may not have substantial coverage, but does show the tie-in to the Backstreet Boys. 3Orlando Senitel, June 4, 1994 4Business Wire, May 26, 2005. 5[3] I'm not sure how reliable it is. It's a Berkshire-Hathaway site, but seems to be a PR release. 6[4] a mention. 78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 15:07, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your Orlando Sentinel reference about Coons checks out. The Orlando Sentinel is a major newspaper publication read by millions. I also listed 2 major references (including one from Businesswire/LA Times) above my previous comments. I am nominating to have the AFD tag atop the article removed and for the article to be kept/added to throughout the future. I think by now Coons' notability and music industry importance have both been clearly established with new references from major broadcast and newspaper publications. Zachtron (talk) 15:22, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid that isn't how AfD works. You may vote "Speedy Keep" but unless you get several other editors to take this viewpoint, the AfD process will need to play through. There is no permanently safe article, and any article may be nominated for deletion through the AfD process, although blatantly unconstructive nominations might draw the ire and a block from the wikipedia community. 78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 15:32, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And just for the record, this nomination isn't even close to an example. 78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 15:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I think 78.26 feels this article was created in good faith - and so do I. Coons appears to be close to meeting the notability guidelines but relies on self published sources too much and isn't there in the mainstream media (yet). The deletion nomination isn't a knock on Mr. Coons - but just a way to keep the encyclopedia from becoming overrun with self-promotions and conflicts of interest. It takes time to build the encyclopedia and if he is notable he will be in it eventually. --Trödel 15:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - While strongly worded by nom, I agree this is a delete. What I see is a local producer who was mentioned by a few groups as having helped them and other sites that mostly use the bio from the two labels he owns or started. Need some independent coverage. I could find no third party evidence regarding his Grammy nominations = only self published ones. There is a 1985 article that covers professionals making music at home but it doesn't appear Coons is the subject of the article from the Orlando Sentinel. Just don't think it is enough to meet GNG. The coverage of the 20 anniversary of Backstreet Boys could result in some articles that would help meet the notability guidelines but until that coverage exists we shouldn't rely on self published articles (like business wire) and mentions by artists in articles about them and not about Coons. --Trödel 15:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
2 new reliable sources just recently added to the article are from a national publication and a national radio broadcast publication, completely independent coverage of both Coons and his work. There are also other independent sources in the article as well which are easily found through a simple Web search. Coons is not a local music producer either, as is factually stated in numerous reliable sources. The Backstreet Boys, Howie Dorough, JoJo, NSYNC, and others are International superstar acts (to which nobody can debate), so Coons cannot be considered your local run of the mill music producer in any way at all. He was also a notable recording artist himself signed to a major record label (BMG Music) and touring Internationally during the late-70's and early-80's.
Also, here is a reminder from a small part of Wikipedia's official BLP deletion policy:
Objecting:
To be canceled, this process requires the presence of at least one reliable source that supports at least one statement made about the person in the biography.
This article now has multiple reliable Independent sources which fully support multiple statements found in the article. This article should be kept and expanded by the Wikipedia community throughout the future. Also, this article is exactly the type of article that all of us over at WikiProject Music are trying to see be properly improved, not deleted because this article meets GNG and is important for classification under the project. However, we do have many articles (unlike this one) which should indeed be deleted and have absolutely no reliable sources in case anybody is interested in helping the project with that. Zachtron (talk) 16:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is the proper response to a WP:PROD request - which is much different than the general notability guidelines (here are the specific guidelines for WP:MUSIC). Every article must meet the notability guidelines - when people think it doesn't and the removal will be easily decided - they can propose deletion with a PROD request. As stated above, Coons can't be easily deleted. In other words, because the PROD can be successfully objected to (as you quoted above) and there are some that still feel deletion is warranted (such as the nominator and myself), there must be a discussion regarding the notability guidelines - which is what we are doing here.
PS - Sorry to ask you to do this, but could you provide the specific reliable sources you are referencing as when I went through them I didn't see any for which Coons was the subject and was also a reliable source. --Trödel 16:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am aware the article cannot be simply deleted and that this is indeed the correct WP:PROD request. Here is one reliable Independent source pertaining to Coons' winning a Diamond Award (over 10 million units sold) (3rd and 4th paragraphs). Coons is a partial but important subject matter of the article along with Ball in the House, but this is for WP:MUSIC guidelines and reliable source documentation as it pertains to producers and composers. Here is an article from the major newspaper Orlando Sentinel which discusses Coons' songwriting for the Backstreet Boys, again for WP:MUSIC guidelines as it pertains to producers and composers. Here is a source from the well-known Infinity Music Corporation which again documents the factual statements about both Coons and his work. Here is the source from this week that also supports producer and composer guidelines. I will also list "Coons only" sources when I have chance as you have requested. At the most, this specific article should possibly be classified as a Stub under WikiProject Music, but I vehemently stand by the thought that it should not be deleted. This particular article is a small but important part of a much larger initiative to properly improve WikiProject Music and all of its sub projects for the Wikipedia community as a whole. The music industry is going through tremendous changes right now, and it is vital that we improve the quality of the project for Wikipedia readers all around the world. Deleting these types of legitimate articles that meet WP:MUSIC, BLP, and GNG guidelines can be very detrimental to the project and at times can discourage interested contributors from wanting to become and/or stay involved with the project. As a side note, we welcome any interested new contributors to the project because we could definitely use some! Zachtron (talk) 17:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Zach, you really don't get what people are trying to tell you, do you? Your very solid reference as of this week regarding Coons: http://thekaylabeckershow.com/?p=860, which I have now correctly formatted in the article so it's clickable, is again *not* about Coons, but about the BSB and Coons gets a fleeting half-sentence mention. To pass the GNG, references have to be about the subject of the article themselves, notability is not inherited. CaptainScreebo Parley! 09:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the links, but like the links I put on the talk page, these do not meet the standard as I understand it. None of them are about Coons - although he is quoted or mentioned. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. WP:GNG --Trödel 11:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The article needs to continually add newer and better references, including more about Coons as the full main subject, but it does pass recently updated WP:MUSIC category guidelines and GNG for accomplished producers, composers, and songwriters that have key notability under new community designated project guidelines for WikiProject Music and its sub projects. One of the requirements is actually sources about notable associated music acts and their songs/albums which have production, composition, songwriting, and/or other direct accomplishments directly tied to the producer, composer, and/or songwriter. Notability is never inherited of course as CaptainScreebo correctly points out above, but this is not the case in this particular WP:MUSIC category. Notable producers, composers, and songwriters rarely have major "write-ups" about them. Even the world-famous Max Martin (who Coons has directly worked on various projects with) does not have a tremendous amount of media source "write-ups" directly about him, as the famous artists usually always get the press coverage/credit. That is the way it works in the music industry. This is why the main WP:MUSIC notability requirement for producers, composers, and songwriters which was recently updated by the community as a whole requires production/songwriting credits as well as reference mentions in source articles for notable music acts (obviously the Backstreet Boys pass notability 110% by being one of the biggest commercial acts in the history of the music industry) and albums/songs that have achieved a certain level of commercial success/notability. Also, Coons' production and songwriting credits on the Diamond Award winning album Backstreet Boys fully passes WP:MUSIC notability for inclusion in Wikipedia. If Coons was even borderline to begin with, which seems to be a slight debate, this garners him for inclusion under the WP:MUSIC guidelines for his specific category which is a major part of WikiProject Music and its sub projects. Both Coons direct production work and songwriting credits on a Diamond selling album and his direct professional continued association and work with the Backstreet Boys and other notable music acts clearly falls into line with the newer WP:MUSIC GNG/BLP requirements for music producers, composers, and songwriters which is a major foundation element of WikiProject Music's massive improvement overhaul.
*Note: This is one of the most key elements of the massive reorganization of WikiProject Music and its sub projects. We are never looking to include "local-yocal" or "non-essential" music personnel, because there is way too much of that which must be removed from Wikipedia as we can all agree on. However, key category figures like Coons and others notable accomplished music producers, composers, and songwriters that have direct production credits on worldwide successfully commercial albums (as is the factual case here) are to be documented as accurately as possible and included in Wikipedia under WP:MUSIC guidelines as it pertains to their category. One of the main objectives of the project's massive reorganization is to remove fully non-notable and "local-yocal" music personnel and to include essential category figures such as Coons and others that have direct credits on some of the highest selling albums in history and continued tie-ins to notable music artists. Notability is never "inherited", but this is not the case in this situation, as Coons (and also others in his category) are included for their own notability for direct production, composition, and songwriting credits on commercially successful albums. This is why we want articles about key notable music personnel such as Coons, and want to get rid of totally unessential and non-notable "local-yocal" types that have no commercial success of note directly attributed to them.
Zachtron (talk) 13:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. czar · · 02:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. czar · · 02:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject Music has enhanced the article and categorized it. The article itself meets all WP:MUSIC, BLP, and Notability category guidelines as it directly pertains to music producers, composers, and songwriters. The article will be enhanced even further by the WikiProject Music team and general community as a part of the new Producers and Composers sub project for WikiProject Music. After giving it some time with no further objections after initial points were raised/clarified/rectified, we would like to productively close this AFD discussion so that we can remove the AFD tag and fully edit/index the article for the new sub project unless there is any vehement objection. The article does fully meet WP:MUSIC categorization standards (BLP and Notability included) and will be enhanced even further by the project team/Wikipedia community under the new WikiProject sub project for Producers and Composers once the AFD tag is removed. On another note, WikiProject Music has many open tasks that we are looking to assign to any interested editors, so I encourage everybody to check the project out and contribute if interested. The project is definitely worth checking out! Thank you.
Zachtron (talk) 17:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Screeds of text, bla bla bla, Zachtron, you have not added one single reference that speaks directly about wonderboy and his significance to the music scene, he is a peripheral figure to majorly famous BOys Bands, so what? DElete, toujours! CaptainScreebo Parley! 18:47, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Screebo, absolutely no personal attack on you at all, but obviously your bla bla bla sabre rattling bias as the Nom shines through crystal clear with both your unnecessary venomous/disrespectful tone with regards to my words and irrational lack of full understanding in this particular case. New sources were indeed added about "wonderboy" as you put it which clearly show more than enough that he is not a peripheral figure as you put it. Also, you may indeed have knowledgeable expertise when it comes to certain topics in Wikipedia, but you clearly are a bit misinformed about WP:MUSIC, BLP, notability, and other inclusion guidelines as it categorically pertains to music, and more importantly to notable music composers, producers, and songwriters, as is the case here with "wonderboy". I would gladly say "keep, toujours" to you in response, but why bother when your beyond obvious bias is clear as glass. No rush, we will just keep the discussion going, as obviously you seem set in your thoughts.
By the way Screebo, here is an article one of our project editors found from 2011 about "wonderboy" which was in a major American newspaper. I'm sorry, but this seriously shoots a major hole in your "peripheral figure" fallacy. In fact, this reference seals the deal for a keep. Here is the article link
Zachtron (talk) 06:21, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This new reference fully supports the entire Wikipedia article for Tim Coons, and should fully end any debate regarding notable accomplishments and important facts correctly stated throughout the article. It is from a major American newspaper, and Coons is the article's entire subject. Thanks go out to the WikiProject Music team for this reference contribution. Here is the reference link
Zachtron (talk) 07:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are hundreds of legitimate archived references from online publications and 3rd party sites of all types out there. The latest reference looks to be an obvious legit reference, as it is a directly linked section of the Orlando Sentinel's official website, with advertising icon links for Weebly and other companies it appears. As for WP:ROUTINE, the latest article reference does not fall under that distinction, as it was a major publication piece written directly about Coons himself verifying the highly notable professional accomplishments and information found in the Wikipedia article about Coons. The latest reference does meet WP:CREATIVE, and Coons notability is not inherited from the Backstreet Boys in any way at all, as the article is a specialty piece directly about Coons and his exceedingly notable accomplishments within the music industry. Coons fully meets all WP:MUSIC category requirements (which includes BLP and GNG) as it pertains to music producers, composers, and songwriters. His Diamond Award (which means over 10 million albums sold) alone (which is verified in the latest reference) for one of the highest selling albums in music history directly meets WP:MUSIC requirements for music producers, composers, and songwriters. Personally winning a Diamond Award and being nominated for a Grammy Award twice far exceeds WP:MUSIC category guidelines for inclusion. This AFD debate discussion can remain open (although that is highly questionable at best IMO), but Coons fully meets all WP:MUSIC requirements for his category, so this article should definitely be kept in accordance with that and added to/improved upon. Coons individual notability has been well established, and on his own merits as well, not inherited from the celebrity music acts that he has made direct contributions to the work of. Zachtron (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Ultimately the number of reliable sources is severely lacking. I fail to see how the "significant coverage" aspect of WP:GNG is met when a majority of the sources provided either barely mention the subject of this article or don't even do so at all. --Kinu t/c 07:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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