Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tile wisdom

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Considering that substantial sourcing was added very late in the discussion. Renomination is possible. Sandstein 18:35, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tile wisdom[edit]

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Mistranslation from the Dutch. The "tegeltjeswijsheid" is not the tile but the aphorism; it can be (and often is) applied to aphorisms in other contexts (compare here or the sources within the article itself, neither of which discuss tiles). I couldn't find sources actually discussing the tile itself. I don't see that the Dutch aphorisms are meaningfully different from English ones, and the Dutch don't limit the term to Dutch aphorisms anyway. I was thinking of redirecting to "aphorism", but "tile wisdom" would not be a likely search term. Huon (talk) 22:45, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The article now says (since before your nomination) that the "tile wisdom" is an aphorism, as appears on a tile. I defer to Dutch-speaking readers about the availability of sources about this topic. I think it is reasonable to cover not just the idea that this is an aphorism, but that there is a particular genre of decorative art the word comes from (tegeltjeswijsheid contains the Dutch word tile; aphorism/proverb/saying are apparently different words than tegeltjeswijsheid). Note that at least one source in the article specifically discusses tiles: "You usually see them painted on Delft blue tiles with an image." (machine translation of [1]) Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:54, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:56, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I can repeat what I said in my original WP:PROD: "Unremarkable term which could apply to tiles from anywhere, or words written on any medium. ~~Image appears not to be a genuine tile, but a photoshopped creation.~~ (image since deleted for copyvio). No significant references found on Google to suggest this will ever be worthy of an article." So, I see no reason to translate the name of an aphorism from Dutch into English and then call that English word notable, especially with these two references. Nick Moyes (talk) 01:21, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the deletion nomination was subject to an edit conflict; it took me some time to write it, and when I started it still said the subject was the tiles, not the aphorisms. That said, I also explained why writing about Dutch aphorisms as if they were something special isn't appropriate; the Dutch equally apply the same term to any aphorisms, including non-Dutch ones entirely unrelated to tiles. Not even the tradition of putting them up on walls is unique; the Dutch apparently just use a different medium. Reliable sources discussing the Dutch choice of medium are still absent. Huon (talk) 14:54, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per Huon and Nick Moyes. This was a poor article accept from AFC. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 17:32, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete per Huon as it's utterly unremarkable. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 18:00, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The translation is literally accurate (it's not a "mistranslation"). But while it may be an obscure Dutch term, that doesn't mean it belongs here. "Utterly unremarkable", I agree. Paul Koning (talk) 21:00, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - ignore the translation discussion and search for the actual SUBJECT which is nl:Tegeltjeswijsheid. It sounds trivial but the subject meets notability requirements as it has been written about in-depth by numerous sources. This is distinctively Dutch and goes beyond words on actual tiles but extends to Dutch cliches in general and computer-generated phrases in this tile-style. Look it up.[2][3][4] —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep I just located a more substantive source, in Spanish.[5] Calliopejen1 (talk) 07:44, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:36, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:42, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 12:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

delete/rename? Here's the problem: if there is an English name for this, this phrase isn't it. GBook search produces several pages of obvious misreadings of scanned books, but nothing like this. If we want to rename this to the Dutch word, I'm leery of that given that hits for the word in English-only searches mostly produce clickbait. Mangoe (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand this vote. If the title were tegeltjeswijsheid (I'd be happy for it to be moved there), would you think it is an appropriate subject for an article? Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, I also think it's an odd !vote. Maybe Mangoe might wish to strike one bit out? Trying to move this along a bit, and referring to my above rationale for deletion, were this Dutch word ever to be commonly used in the English language, then I'd say this article should stay. But there's no evidence of this at all. Show us an English language source that talks about this topic, and I could be persuaded to strike my !vote. But I can't imagine anyone I know ever spotting a painted tile hanging on a wall and saying "oh look, what lovely tegeltjeswijsheid over there!" And I'm sure they wouldn't mentally convert it into English and say "ah, tile wisdom, it's always nice to see some of that!" Now, Schadenfreude, that's a completely different kettle of fish, and quite acceptable to have a page on this foreign language word because the term is used in the English language quite a lot. The idea that we translate every language's minor aphorisms into every other language and then create a Wikipedia page on it is quite frightening. Nick Moyes (talk) 01:57, 22 June 2018 (UTC) [reply]

I don't see why it matters whether the Dutch word is used in English or discussed in English-language sources. To me, this seems to be a tradition that is meaningfully distinct from other traditions in other countries. (There is a certain prescribed format for wall décor aphorisms, which doesn't seem to be the case elsewhere.) Others seem to disagree, or think that there are insufficient sources describing this tradition. Those are the relevant topics for discussion here, not whether English-language sources describe the tradition. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:22, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If people use the Dutch word in English-language sources, then we should simply rename the article. If not, then what is it called? "Tile wisdom" appears, by all evidence, to be a coinage of whoever write this article. If we can't find English-language sources which use some English word/phrase, and we are unwilling to use the Dutch word, then there's no way to justify having an article. Mangoe (talk) 18:04, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Who is unwilling to use the Dutch word? I've just moved the article because I agree it's a better title. We have a Spanish source that uses the Dutch word, and a Dutch source that (obviously) uses the Dutch word. There are no English-language sources. (I'll just note that there are plenty of unreliable sources out there that use the phrase "tile wisdom".) Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:19, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Huon, Nick Moyes, Cameron11598, Chrissymad, and Paul Koning: Please take another look at this article and the new sources supplied. A much more thorough article could be written based on the Provinciale Zeeuwse Courant and Onze Taal sources, but I am hesitant to do so given that I am working off of machine translations. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I have located and added a number of additional sources, including two articles (one in a newspaper and one in a magazine) that discuss the tradition in depth. I have also located evidence of a museum exhibition about this tile tradition, an effort to begin a national day celebrating these tiles, etc. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:25, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.