Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thyra von Westernhagen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thyra von Westernhagen[edit]

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Notability concerns - does not appear to be the subject of substantial coverage. References mention her in the context of her husband. Having a title of nobility does not automatically make one notable for the purposes of Wikipedia. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:13, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:18, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:18, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Notability isn't inherited by marriage. I do wonder whether the author may need more time as this is a relatively new article? On what there is now, it's a straightforward delete. W C M_email 12:11, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I am searching for more sources in German and French. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 17:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:GNG. Wikipedia is not a genealogical database. Colin M (talk) 02:13, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, no in-depth coverage of the person, just a list of genealogical facts. —Kusma (t·c) 11:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or draftify. Poorly referenced but notable by virtue of her rank. Deb (talk) 13:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:INVALIDBIO notability isn't inherited by marriage. She must be notable in her own right. W C M_email 13:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I know what the rules say, but I don't agree with your interpretation. Deb (talk) 13:31, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Lol an inherited now-meaningless rank does not automatically give notability. Reywas92^Talk 20:53, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- "Now meaningless rank"? Wikipedia has many articles on members of formerly sovereign families. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 17:22, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, absolutely. Those other members still have multiple substantive independent reliable sources about them. There is not automatic notability for being nobility. Reywas92^Talk 20:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep subject is a prominent landowner in Germany and a senior member of a Germanic-British royal house through marriage. She is the daughter-in-law of the former Head of the House of Hanover. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 17:22, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow, simply owning land makes you notable now?! Where is this land and what is on it? Do they live in a castle? Hell, none of the sources even assert that she, rather than her husband, owns any of this land! Her husband appears to be more notable for running a publishing house and writing books, rather than owning land, though it's somewhat weak too. Notability through marriage is NOT automatically inherited. All of the sources are passing mentions of generic biographical stats about her marriage and having had children, nothing to be gleamed about her life. Redirect to Prince Heinrich of Hanover, sources provide nothing about her independent of the marriage to him. Reywas92^Talk 20:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Willthacheerleader18: I could not see any mention of being a land owner in the references you gave. I find it strange that biographical facts about Thyra (like what she studied and where) are not mentioned, but trivial things like whose weddings she attended are. I do not think the lawsuit against Desiree Nick is sufficient to establish notability. —Kusma (t·c) 17:01, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep agree with user Willthacheerleader18 and she is a senior member of a Germanic-British royal house by marriage. Hninthuzar (talk) 11:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Unclear what makes one a "senior member"; appears to have no official duties but merely WP:INHERITED a title. Can you point to the guideline that makes any member of a royal house automatically notable, regardless of substantive sources? Reywas92^Talk 20:08, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment documenting her notability as a member of two prominent European families, one by birth - the "House of Westernhagen", one by marriage the "House of Hanover". Hninthuzar (talk) 04:23, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem (talk) 01:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Notability is not inherited... not even for royalty. Trillfendi (talk) 02:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Royalty is notable. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
Keep I read through the article, I think royalty holds a certain amount of notability and is very well recorded. She is a Princess of the Blood via marriage, which makes her a high ranking member of the House of Hanover and royalty is almost always notable. That's not WP:NOTINHERITED, that's membership of a group which makes its members implicitly notable. PopaMedaw (talk) 09:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I do not find any significant coverage, apart from genealogical (eg Debrett's Peerage), or in connection with her step-son's mother. I voted to Keep the article about Princess Christina Margarethe of Hesse because there has been significant coverage of her - no doubt because of her relationship to Prince Philip, but anyway a reason for authors and journalists write articles or sections of books about her. For Thyra von Westernhagen, I have not found any news items apart short notices of her marriage, and mentions in relation to her stepson's mother, and nothing in books. So although she is related by marriage to the British royal family, and holds the title of Princess, it seems that she hasn't been considered significant enough to write about. If there is coverage in sources I'm not aware of, then she might well qualify for a WP article, but without that, she does not meet any notability guidelines. (Someone mentioned this AfD in the AfD for Jeanne-Françoise de Coeme, Lady of Lucé and Bonnétable, but while it seems entirely reasonable to find fewer sources for someone who lived in the 16th century, but for someone born in 1973, one would expect to find a lot more.) RebeccaGreen (talk) 09:42, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 13:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As far as I’m concerned, anyone who wasn’t born royalty has inherited notability via who they marry, until they estabilish their own. She hasn’t done that. Trillfendi (talk) 23:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, she may not have been born into a royal house but she was born into a noble house (the House of Westernhagen is much older than the House of Hanover). -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 02:30, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Westernhagens trace their male-line back no earlier than to the 1100s, whereas the House of Hanover, aka the House of Guelph (Welf), extends back in the female line to the first known Welf, who was Count in Linzgau from 842 AD. His descendant and heiress, Kunigunde Welf, wed Azzo II of Este, Margrave of Milan in c.1030, being himself a male-line descendant of Adalberto Obergtenghi who already held the Margraviate of Liguria in 950 AD. Azzo's descendants divided the dynasty's vast possessions into German and Italian realms. The present House of Hanover is the German branch, which reigned within and post-Holy Roman Empire as dukes, prince-electors and then kings until 1918. The wife of the current head of the Hanovers, Princess Caroline, was the heiress presumptive of the Principality of Monaco until the birth in 2014 of legitimate children to her brother, Prince Albert II. By contrast, the Westernhagens, although certainly Uradel, never rose above the minor German nobility, not even attaining the lowest title of baron, and they never exercised sovereignty. The historical significance of the two families is not even remotely comparable. If Thyra is "notable", that status derives entirely from her marriage into the House of Hanover, whose doings continue to be documented in reliable sources because of their historical significance, vast wealth and royal descent. Until the late 1960s, her marriage to the heir would have been deemed morganatic by the Hanovers' house rules. FactStraight (talk) 04:11, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware, but thank you for the history lesson. As I stated, the House of Hanover, as its own independent house, is younger. I did not say that it made them inferior (and there is really no reason to mention the House of Grimaldi in a conversation about the age of the House of Hanover). I also am aware that her family is of the minor nobility, hence her not having a title at birth (in the German system baron is not the lowest title, as Edler and Ritter are both hereditary titles conferring nobility that are lower ranked). All I was saying is that she is from an established, noble family. I did not say I believe that makes her notable, but was clarifying she wasn't of "common" birth, which was seeming to be implied. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 04:28, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are no hereditary titles in Germany. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia has no title, but the last name "Prinz von Preußen". The only special thing about families with names of this type is that the last name changes with gender, and his daughter's last name is "Prinzessin von Preußen". "Hereditary titles conferring nobility" have been a fiction for almost 100 years now. —Kusma (t·c) 10:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment documenting her notability as a member of two prominent European families, one by birth - the "House of Westernhagen", one by marriage the "House of Hanover". Hninthuzar (talk) 04:24, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. From the above, notable in her own right.--Ipigott (talk) 12:03, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:02, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per above as a member of two different European royal houses. Ejgreen77 (talk) 03:33, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Statement is a false misunderstanding. The van Westernhagen family is nobility, not royalty. This is an argument based purely on inheritance and there are not substantive sources about her. The German WP article on the family de:Westernhagen (Adelsgeschlecht) does not even recognize her as a notable member. Reywas92^Talk 07:52, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per above, This article needs time and attention, not deletion. "KoKoChitChit" (talk) 15:01, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. IMHO, Royalty are always notable. Bearian (talk) 23:47, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.