Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Theodimir

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. I withdraw this per work of PamD and naming inconsistency. (non-admin closure) –Ammarpad (talk) 13:53, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Theodimir[edit]

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I initially draftified this but it was soon brought back into mainspace. I have to re-read thi stub many times to find how this person meet notability guideline but I couldn't. He only existed, and even that according to the stub only little is known about him, maybe he never even existed. This is non notable person. –Ammarpad (talk) 09:33, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 12:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 12:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 12:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I am not sure this is evident because no indication is given, but the article is an attempt at direct translation of es:Teodomiro (santo), and a similar (poorly-formatted) translation has also been done by the same editor at fr:Théodemir (Saint). It is unclear to me that the correct spelling has been selected for the rendering of this saint in English - I find two 19th century English language sources that call him Theodomir. In terms of notability, I find multiple book-length monographs concerning this saint (including the one cited as ref 1 of the article), plus a couple of journal articles (perhaps more, but I can't tell from the titles if some of them refer to this man or the Visigoth general). I also find mention of a Jesuit colegio in Carmona named in his honor that was active in the 17th and 18th centuries, and a "calle San Teodomiro de Carmona" in Seville. Taken together, this would seem to satisfy WP:BIO, although the only one I have been able to view is from 1805, and perhaps not what a modern scholar would deem 'reliable'. That is not to say the article is a good one: even the original Spanish one is problematic, but I don't think notability is the problem. Still, we may want to blow it up and start from scratch. Additional works:

Francisco Xavier Cebreros, Vida del señor San Teodomiro Mártir, natural y patrono de la ciudad de Carmona, Madrid: Josef del Collado, 1805.

Salvador Fernández Álvarez, Devociones populares : San Teodomiro, hijo y patrón de Carmona, Sevilla, 1952

Fernando de la Villa Nogales, La imagen de San Teodomiro Mártir : abogado, hijo ilustre y patrón de Carmona : conmemoración del IV centenario de la traída de las reliquias de San Teodomiro a Carmona, 1609-2009, Carmona [Sevilla] : F. de la Villa, 2010

Tomás de Aquino García y García, "San Teodomiro. hijo ilustre y patrón de Carmona y mártir de Córdoba", Archivo hispalense: Revista histórica, literaria y artística, v. 39, Nº 120-121, 1963, pp. 79-113

José Manuel Delgado Rodríguez, "Las Coplas de San Teodomiro, Patrón de Carmona", Carmona : Revista de estudios locales, Nº. 2, 2004, pp. 350-402

Agricolae (talk) 15:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Hello I am the creator of the article, and I will address the claims made. First, I am not sure what Teodomiro's name is translated to in English since there seems to be many different translations so I apologize if I used the incorrect one. Second, St Teodomiro is certainly relevant - he is a Saint and he has big proccessions in Carmona([1]). Finally, there isn't that much else I could add about his life. For example the book by Francisco Xavier Cebreros is mostly about Carmona and whether or not St Teodomiro was from there, whether or not he was a Benedictine monk, whether or not he was martyr, etc. I don't really know what else I could add about his life, since the only source from that time available is the Memorialis Sanctorum, which I cannot find online so I couldn't cite. –Albertobarbossa (talk) 13:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you could explain that there is some uncertainty over whether he was from Carmona, whether he was a Benedictine monk, whether he was a martyr, rather than simply stating these things as fact because that is what the es.wiki page said. At a minimum, you should look at the policy on interwiki translations and make sure that you follow the rules regarding appropriately attributing translated material. You should also fix the faulty formatting in the fr.wiki translation. What you don't want to do is find a copy of the Memorialis Sanctorum - using this primary source would violate policy prohibiting Original Research. This is the hidden context behind the requirement for notability being based on significant mention in reliable secondary sources: if there aren't enough secondary sources to allow you to write the article without going to the original records, then you can't write an decent article without violating policy. (Here it looks like there are secondary sources, it is just a problem of laying hands on them.) Agricolae (talk) 22:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: enough for notability for a saint, but needs work - I've done a little, found another source listing him by a different spelling, linked to the French and Spanish articles, added him to the name page at Theodemir (given name). If you can find an online copy of the Memorialis Sanctorum, add it as an External link. (I thought I was going to find one at Eulogius_of_Córdoba#External_links, but the link to "Latin writings" wasn't working - worth trying again in case it was just a temporary outage). PamD 07:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like PamD's new source calls him Theodemir. If this AfD ends as 'keep', I think a page rename is in order, not only for this page but for some of the others at Theodemir (given name), where it is evident we have used seemingly arbitrary spelling choices to disambiguate people of the same name (e.g. the page Theudimer lists a different spelling first before the one used for the page name). It seems to me all of the spelling variants should point to the disambiguation page, and the individual pages given true disambiguating names, except where there is an indication that a given name form is used exclusively to refer to a specific individual. Agricolae (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - While I understand the initial nomination, through the work of Agricolae and PamD, there is now enough to warrant keeping. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 14:34, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Saints recognised by major churches are notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:59, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 12:59, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.