Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The White Horse, Hertford

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Warm Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 14:22, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The White Horse, Hertford[edit]

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Nothing particularly notable about this pub TheMagikCow (T) (C) 19:56, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Grade II listed buildings are generally regarded as notable per WP:GEOFEAT. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:06, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep, because as Redrose64 says, the pub is in a Grade II listed building. Though I can't find any reliable secondary sources about the pub business, partly because there is a much better known White Horse pub in a nearby village. Sionk (talk) 20:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep More-or-less automatically notable per WP:NBUILD. And it is not as if there is COI or paid editing on behalf of the pub business itself. Edwardx (talk) 20:21, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A historic institution dating back over 400 years and so significantly older than the USA. Andrew D. (talk) 20:37, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Snow keep. Grade II listed building. James500 (talk) 21:57, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:14, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm neutral on whether the article should be deleted, but neither the article itself nor the cited source actually makes the claim that the pub itself is 400 years old, just that the buildings currently occupied by the pub are. In fact, the use of the wording "now public house" in the source somewhat implies the opposite of the claim made by several of the above keep !votes. It should also probably be noted that being "significantly older than the USA" is not an inclusion criterion. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:05, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, WP:NOTINHERITED, this pub may occupy a couple of listed buildings but it does not in itself appear notable, it is just the latest occupant ie. started 1994?, other occupant history here?, so if this is kept at the very least it should be renamed to "33 to 35 Castle Street, Hertford, Hertfordshire" otherwise it is just here to promote the pub. Coolabahapple (talk) 16:20, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Those other "occupants" are the landlords (people who run the pub). Philafrenzy (talk) 19:45, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Probably since around 1810" as a beerhouse (https://southherts.camra.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/POV232-Web-Version.pdf) although I'm not sure if that's reliable, and our article says beerhouses didn't exist then - but no later than the 1890s according to the occupant history link. What started in 1994 was Dark Horse Brewing, a microbrewery that was based at the pub for two years then moved to another location in the town, but the article is not about that. Whether it's called by the pub's name or the address depends on whether it is about the pub (numbers 31-33) for which it is the common name, or about the entire building (31-35). Grade II isn't always notable - all listed buildings are Grade II or above, and some Grade II* listed buildings probably don't meet requirements of the general notability guideline. Peter James (talk) 18:30, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:COMMONNAME, we should use "the name that is most commonly used". I doubt anyone locally calls it "33 to 35 Castle Street". Edwardx (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The pub is number 33, and the former number 31 is now part of it, but it looks like number 35 is still a house. Peter James (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Per WP:NBUILD "Artificial geographical features that are officially assigned the status of cultural heritage or national heritage, or of any other protected status on a national level and which verifiable information beyond simple statistics are available are presumed to be notable." The Common Name is The White Horse, with Hertford as the disambiguator. I doubt this article is making any difference to their trade. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
so if i live in a listed house, there can be a wikiarticle named "Coola's house" as the common name. do these buildings' listings discuss their continuing usage as a pub/drinking establishment or is it just happenstance that that is their latest manifestation, also what of no. 35 that appears to be missing out because it isn't part of the white horse? Coolabahapple (talk) 02:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I added 35 and created a redirect for it. I assume that English Heritage (as was) had the same problem when they had to decide what name to use in their listing and decided that the most practical solution was to go with the pub name. As for their choices, they normally go with the name at the time of listing and don't change even if the use of the building changes. In this case the building has had the same function for a very long time. So the answer to your question is that if the house is known as Coola's House when listed, it will be shown as such on the register. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:42, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yaay!, so all i need do is ensure the demolition of the 100s of other 1970s neo california bungalows in the area, apply to the heritage authorities, wait 3 or 4 years for it to be considered and listed .... Coolabahapple (talk) 08:14, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Or if you were in the U.K., wait 500 years. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:10, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What we need is a photograph of the group of three buildings with an explanatory caption. Unfortunately nobody has taken one for Commons yet, I checked. Doesn't appear to be any historic ones either that I could find. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We could have meetup here, then everyone would take a photo and there'd be a mad scramble to upload them to Commons :-D Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:18, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea! But would we have a conflict of interest as patrons? Philafrenzy (talk) 21:24, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Curiously, CAMRA's London Pubs Group emailed me about this a few days ago Daytime Crawl of Hertford, Saturday 8 September 2018. 7 pubs, all either GII or GII*. COIs could be avoided by bringing our own beer! Edwardx (talk) 22:29, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They will need hollow legs for that. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:34, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.