Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Terrell Whitehead

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Keeping - appears a lot of folks have done the due diligence to show evidence that the subject merits inclusion. Please improve. And you can always re-nominate it if one desires. Missvain (talk) 20:40, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Terrell Whitehead[edit]

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Terrell Whitehead (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Fails WP:NGRIDIRON, having never played in a game professionally. I was able to find coverage from The Virginian-Pilot (five featured articles added to the page), but only passing mentions elsewhere, which is not enough to pass WP:GNG. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Virginia-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not clear if Div I FCS All-American qualifies under NCOLLATH but the fact that he received the honor three years in a row and was named MEAC Defensive Player of the Year two years in a row is an extraordinary achievement and sufficient to establish notability IMO. Cbl62 (talk) 19:28, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Cbl62: I doubt being an FCS All-American or MEAC Defensive Player of the Year meets WP:NCOLLATH, as FCS is basically third-tier amateur American football (after Power 5 and Group of 5 in the FBS) and the MEAC has typically been in the bottom half of FCS conferences this millennium. (Since 2015, the MEAC no longer sends its conference champion to the FCS playoffs, instead playing in the Celebration Bowl. Before 2015, it had failed to send an at-large team to the playoffs in 12 of the previous 15 seasons: 2000–2002, 2004–2009, 2011–2012, 2014.) It appears you've found the same coverage as I did from The Virginian-Pilot, and the subject still needs significant coverage in additional sources to pass GNG. Eagles 24/7 (C) 04:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, NCOLLATH is unclear as to whether Division I FCS All-Americans qualify. In this case, however, we have someone who was recognized as a first-team FCS All-American for three consecutive years -- an extremely rare accomplishment. Further, your dismissal of the MEAC as the bottom of the barrel is misguided. The MEAC competes by choice in the Celebration Bowl to preserve the heritage of HBCU football and to determine the Black college football national championship. And a review of recent MEAC Defensive Players of the Year (Darius Leonard, Darryl Johnson, Javon Hargrave, Joe Thomas, Ryan Davis, Stevie Baggs, Justin Durant, Rashean Mathis, Tracy White) shows what a high-level accomplishment this is -- and Whitehead won the honor two years in a row. These are extraordinary accomplishments which lead me to resolve any ambiguity in NCOLLATH in favor of a finding of notability. This one is worth keeping IMO. Cbl62 (talk) 07:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Cbl62: Looks like he was an AP first-team FCS All-American in 2009 ([1]), but he's not listed on the 2008 team ([2]) or 2007 team ([3]). However, he was a three-time first-team All-Conference selection according to his Norfolk State bio. To your other points, yes, the MEAC and SWAC chose not to participate in the FCS playoffs beginning in 2015, but those conferences also had not ever participated in an FCS title game going back to 1978. You can go along with their marketing strategy and say they're "preserv[ing] the heritage of HBCU football" but if they were actually competitive within the FCS division, they wouldn't have had to create their own championship game. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS applies to your argument that because other MEAC Defensive Players of the Year are now notable for their subsequent NFL careers, that all players who win the award deserve articles. Eagles 24/7 (C) 19:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to Eagle247's two points above as follows:

(1) Just as in the case of FBS, AP is not the only recognized All-American selector. While I realize that AA claims are sometimes exaggerated, there are reliable sources referring to him as a three-time All-American. I found independent confirmation as to both 2008 and 2009 as follows:

  • 2008: See "NSU's Whitehead an All-American 2nd year in row", 1/7/09 ("Whitehead is NSU's first two-time All-American since linebacker Kevin Talley in 2003-04."). Separately, he was also named to the HBCU All-America team. See here.
  • 2009: Named to the Division I-AA All-America team by the Walter Camp Football Foundation. See here (12/15/09) and here (12/17/09). Also named to the SBN Sports Black College All-American Team. See here.

(2) My listing of other recent MEAC DPOYs is not a case of "OSE". Rather, it was offered in response to your contention that MEAC was a bottom-tier conference and, more importantly, to show that MEAC DPOY is a notable award of a type that should appropriately be covered by NCOLLATH. Cbl62 (talk) 20:49, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

His Norfolk State bio says he was a third-team The Sports Network All-America selection in 2007 and 2008, and while I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt here, if he were named first-team All-America by any organization, his college would absolutely include it in that bio. So The Virginian-Pilot is correct that he was a three-time All-American, but your assertion below timestamped 19:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC) that he was a three-time first-team All-American is incorrect, and in actuality not a particularly "rare" accomplishment. I still strongly disagree that Whitehead somehow passes WP:NCOLLATH based on the honors we're talking about here, as a conference DPOY and several second-tier All-Americas are not "national" awards, and GNG has still not been met. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:45, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still don't think he's notable under WP:NCOLLATH, was never covered outside of the paper which was going to cover whoever played for that club. SportingFlyer T·C 07:24, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"was never covered outside of the paper which was going to cover whoever played for that club". The comment is wrong on two grounds grounds. First, it wrongly assumes that the Virginian-Pilot gave this level of feature story coverage to "whoever played" for Norfolk State. This is way off base. As a three-time AA and two-time DPOY, Whitehead got an extraordinary level and depth of coverage in the Pilot. Second, it wrongly assumes that he did not get coverage of any type elsewhere. This, too, is off base. While the depth is lesser than in the Pilot, examples of coverage in other publications include the ESPN article cited at (3) above as well as the following further examples (available via ProQuest): (11) MEAC announces 2009 Preseason Football Prediction, Los Angeles Sentinel, 8/3/09; (12) HBCU All-America Team released Tuesday, Philadelphia Tribune, 1/2/09; (13) S.C. State leads Black All-Americas' roster, Philadelphia Tribune, 1/17/10; (14) HBCU All-America Team, Los Angeles Sentinel, 1/8/09; (15) Local Kickers on FCS' A-List, Daily Press, 12/17/09; (16) Norfolk State Spartans, Richmond Times-Dispatch, 8/28/08; (17) Roanoke Times All-State College Football, The Roanoke Times, 12/18/09; (18) SU's Lee, SCSU's Ford preseason all-star picks, Philadelphia Tribune, 8/28/09; (19) MEAC preview, McClatchy - Tribune Business News, 9/3/09; (20) Pair of Hokies honored, McClatchy - Tribune Business News, 12/18/09 (named to All-Virginia team over FBS players from Va. and Va. Tech); (21) 2009 SBN Sports Black College All-American Team Announced, Los Angeles Sentinel, 1/21/10; (22) Three Panthers earn AP honors, McClatch-Tribune Business News, 12/17/09; (23) HU Puts Four on 1st Team, Daily Press, 12/2/08. Cbl62 (talk) 08:59, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can't view any of those, unfortunately. Is there any way you can copy-paste a sentence where he received WP:SIGCOV from one of those articles? SportingFlyer T·C 09:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The ESPN piece (item #3) should be readily viewable. If not, it says: "Defensive player of the year: Terrell Whitehead, Norfolk State defensive back. Whitehead is one of the best cover guys in college football. He had five interceptions and 37 solo tackles this season. Moreover, most teams tried to stay away from Whitehead because of his playmaking skills. And still, he had a brilliant year. He was a big reason why Norfolk State had the second best defense in the MEAC." Cbl62 (talk) 09:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, the ProQuest database is available through Wikipedia Library. I just got access myself, and it's worth doing. Cbl62 (talk) 09:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I also do not have access to the links provided, do any of them mention Whitehead outside of just listing him among another few dozen names? If not, I'm a little disappointed in this WP:REFBOMB that will likely convince !voters who either don't have access to the Wikipedia Library catalog or don't look into links. I'm still looking for at least one other article from a publication besides The Virginian-Pilot that comes anywhere close to the level of focus one of those articles has on Whitehead in order to pass GNG. Eagles 24/7 (C) 19:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I quoted the ESPN piece immediately above your comment. While not a feature story, it has 68 words focused on Whitehead -- i.e, far more than a passing reference -- and national coverage as well. Cbl62 (talk) 20:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As for the ProQuest pieces, they were offered to rebut the assertion that he "was never covered outside of the" Virginian-Pilot. They are mostly brief references documenting his winning various awards. I did not suggest that these were in-depth pieces, and indeed the headlines (which I included) reflect as much. Cbl62 (talk) 21:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Meets GNG per the sources from Cbl62. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 19:03, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per sources and arguments listed above. jp×g 22:11, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I am curious to know why the nominator first made some good improvements to the article, then turned around and listed for AfD. I appreciate the additions made, and they do enough for me to rescue the article. Also, per some of the supporting comments above, I see no reason not to keep.--Concertmusic (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Concertmusic: This article is one of many created a decade ago by a user with an affinity for Jacksonville-related athletes, and they did not seem to know/understand Wikipedia's notability criteria. I combed through their created articles to figure out which ones are actually notable, and nominated many for deletion that did not appear to be notable (12 have since been deleted through AfD or PROD). For this one, I added sources to include in the article to determine if the subject meets GNG, and when I realized I couldn't find enough to satisfy my interpretation of GNG, I brought it here. I only added a list of sources, no other improvements were made. GNG implies multiple sources are needed to pass the guideline, and I only found significant coverage from a single source. Can you state if you believe the coverage from The Virginian-Pilot is enough on its own to pass GNG, or if the blurb from ESPN.com is enough to satisfy the "multiple" part of GNG? That seems to be the point of contention in this discussion. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate the detailed response to my question. As may be obvious, I am very much on the side of inclusionism, and I stand by my earlier statement that the article does enough for me to keep. We may simply need to agree to disagree.--Concertmusic (talk) 21:50, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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