Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Study for a Caricature (Leonardo, Milan)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Study for a Caricature (Leonardo, Milan)

Study for a Caricature (Leonardo, Milan) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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The page should be deleted because it describes a minor drawing, which cannot be positively identified in the Ambrosiana's catalogue of works by Leonardo, his students and imitators. I have searched for the artwork described, looking specifically for a profile resembling in some way that which Carravaggio is supposed to have copied. No leonardesque drawing, either by him or a follower is sufficiently close to be identified as the drawing described. The heading "study for a caricture" is itself nonsense. A "study" is usually a more detailed work than a "caricature". Renaissance artists did "studies" and they also did "caricatures", but since a caricature was not a "finished artwork", no-one did a "study for a caricature". It is either one thing or the other but not both. The vast majority of caricatures in the Ambrosiana that are associated with Leonardo are listed as either "School of leonardo" or "Imitator of Leonardo". Basically, this is a stub about an unidentifiable and un-notable sketch of which there is no illustration and for which there is no reference. Amandajm (talk) 11:39, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Ham 15:30, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 18:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• Delete Hard to imagine how this article could be of any use to anyone. Ewulp (talk) 23:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Northamerica1000^(talk) 07:52, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Delete. The only sources for this concrete drawing seem to be based on the Wikipedia article, an example of how unverified and unverifiable articles from here find their way to the outside world and spread rumours or incorrect information. What we do find in the sources is a more general indication, e.g. this book states "The careful analysis of the servant's features is reminiscent of Leonardo's studies of grotesque people". This general remark seems to have been transformed into the very specific article we are discussing here. Fram (talk) 08:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
• All four book are from Wikipedia, it saying that in their descriptions when you click on them. [1] If it was real, then surely some book would mention it somewhere, or the museum's website would have it listed. Dream Focus 17:11, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
• Delete - Whether or not a book or website somewhere would or does mention it might help us decide if it exists, which is not the question here. The article is unsourced. I am unable to find any reliable coverage, let alone significant coverage in reliable sources. Not notable. (Theoretically, it is possible this study exists but is known by another name. That said, if we cannot find the "correct" name for it, no one looking for the article will ever read it and the article will never be sourced.) - SummerPhD (talk) 01:01, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - I verified some of the information in the article. "The first cartoons possibly were painted by Leonardo da Vinci in his study of caricature." "Caravaggio may have been inspired by da Vinci's caricatures for a character in his 1599 painting Judith and Holofernes." However, I wasn't able to verify the most important: "Caricature features an old servant woman who has cabbage leaf ears, is toothless and grimacing." I found something on Five Character Studies[2] by Leonardo da Vinci, which shows old servant woman toothless and grimacing, but I'm not sure about the cabbage leaf ears, which could be the caricature portion mentioned in the article.

-- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:39, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment - This article is about one specific study. The sources you are providing refer to "cartoons possibly... painted... in his study of caricature" and "da Vinci's caricatures". The article you are trying to save was about one subject and your sources are about two other topics which may or may not be related. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I post "delete" and that I wasn't able to verify the most important information in the article, you read that as an article I am trying to save? -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 01:15, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• Delete - Amandajm's the AfD nominator and has 600+ edits to the Leonardo da Vinci article.[3]. If Amandajm doesn't know of this drawing, it is very doubtful that it exists. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:57, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the complement! But I can assure you, I am surprised all the time. I have searched for this drawing, without finding it.

Maybe a general article on Leonardo's caricatures would be the next step. I'm sure that the subject warrants an article. Amandajm (talk) 01:37, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.