The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. J04n(talk page) 12:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Deletehttp://www.rescen.net/Richard_Layzell/ordmov/lisards.html refers to them being 15 inches at most - and I am not saying that is a reliable source as it appears to be connected to some sort of performance. Caesar Rochefort appears in 22 ghits, virtually all spun off from this article. Peridon (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep(Changed !vote, see below): Verified: Here is the relevant chapter in the French original of Rochefort's book: (144–146). Notable? Very likely - a confirmed species is inherently notable. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 21:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I am, however, quite uncertain about whether Rochefort's five-foot-long iguana-like lizard is the the same as the fifteen-inch "land pike", whose description is also attributed to Rochefort [1]. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 22:08, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And here is Rochefort's description of the same creature: (149–150). Definitely not the same creature. Wikipedia's article is a conflation of both descriptions. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 22:13, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ever more confusing. In this article (apparently written by an expert) states that the "Brochet de terre" (which is translated in older English works as "land pike", and corresponds to the fifteen-inch "squeakinge lisard") is the Mabuya mabouya, which was called "mabuya" by Carib natives—but de Rochefort clearly distinguishes between the "terrifying" mabouja and the fish-like brochet de terre. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 22:37, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)Rochefort-Antilles-p151If it is a species then it is notable, however I am of the impression that the term "Squeakinge Lisard" refers to lizards in general on the island due to the noise they make. The term Squeakinge Lisard seems to come from later works like Vincent Hubbard's recent books. Rochefort did some drawings of the lizards, on page 151 of the book [2] of which one definitely meets the description.Martin451 (talk) 23:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rochefort's illustrations are in order of his descriptions: the five-foot lizard corresponds to the first drawing; the mabouja is omitted; and the brochet de terre—that which is described by Rochefort as squeaking—looks distinctly fish-like, in accordance with his own description, and nothing like the modern Mabuya mabouya, I think. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 23:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My french is very poor, and I have little chance with 360 year old text. Brochet de terr seems to translate to earth pike, which seems to be the lizard in question, albeit 15inches not 5 feet. The Mabuya mabouya looks like the forth picture Gobe mouchesMartin451 (talk) 23:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep A later book refering to Rochefort which can be parsed through google translate [3]. keep with a dose of scepticism.Martin451 (talk) 23:53, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It might also be worth having a look at the "fish" on page 184 [4] and the other one on page 204 [5]. They look like a flying fish, and a fish with a sheeps head. Martin451 (talk) 00:09, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot say keep when the author claims to have fish with wings like a bat, and a "Tau" fish (google translate).Martin451 (talk) 09:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Martin: I think you are misjudging de Rochefort. In my searches, I found that he is often cited by modern herpetologists. Apparently, he was quite a respected naturalist and is the first source for the descriptions of many species in the Caribbean. The quality of his work is no worse than that of other authors of the 17th century. As it happens, the examples you chose are real: The flying fish is well known, and the "sheep-headed fish" is a poor depiction of a narwhal (the first one is perhaps a swordfish). הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 13:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(Summarizing for clarity)
The problem is that de Rochefort describes at least three completely distinct species of lizard that partially correspond to Wikipedia's squeakinge Lisard (which I shall call the sqwiki-lisard, for convenience):
The five-foot lizards, clearly called iguanas by de Rochefort, who describes them in Article II of Chapter 13 (pp. 144–146), and depicted as the first image on page 151.
The sqwiki-lisard is described as such: "The iguana was reportedly 5 feet long, 1 foot "thick". The scales were a mix of black, green, and gold, and their mouth was full of sharp teeth and a thick tongue.""Most of the "lisards" were very unafraid of humans and were easily killed, eventually causing their extinction, though it took three shots to kill one. The Caribs way of hunting them was to stick sharp sticks up the animal's nose. The meat from the iguana was said to be "luscious", but should not be eaten often because it was so rich." This matches de Rochefort's iguana exactly.
The sqwiki-lisard, however, is "an extinct species of iguana that was found on the island of Nevis"; de Rochefort mentions nowhere that "his" iguana is to be found on Nevis specifically, and so there is no reason to say that de Rochefort's iguana is extinct.
The fish-like reptile, called brochet de terre (meaning "land pike"), described by de Rochefort in Article VII of the same chapter (pp. 149–150) and depicted in the last images on p. 151.
Of the sqwiki-lisard it is said: "Apparently, the lizard resembled a fish, and therefore was also dubbed Land Pike. Caesar Rochefort, who also made engravings of these strange creatures in 1649, stated that they move on land in a manner similar to snakes, but do have four, very weak, legs." This corresponds almost exactly to de Rochefort's brochet de terre, except that de Rochefort clearly did not consider the four-legged fish to be lizard like—see his comment in the last paragraph of his description of iguanas on page 146. Also, the appellation "Squeakinge Lisard" (minus the lizard) corresponds to the brochet de terre only, which is said by de Rochefort to be very noisy. The measurement given on other websites, "15 inches", is also taken from the brochet de terre.
The frightening mabouja
Apparently identical with Mabuya mabouya—identified by lizard experts as de Rocheforts brochet de terre!
I hope this summary helps someone, because my previous comments are very confusing, even to myself.
Delete: No, this isn't a hoax - but it is a chimera. The article confuses at least two different species, combines them into an extinct lizard of Nevis, while there is no evidence that they are extinct and were ever found on Nevis, and has a ridiculous and useless 17th-century title. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 13:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - questionable notability (from what I can tell, only one source?), chimera, inaccurate information, probably intended as a hoax. Ansh666 03:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
