Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soviet famine of 1932-1933

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep (non-admin closure), as per consensus. Ecoleetage (talk) 00:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet famine of 1932-1933[edit]

Not an encyclopedic topic. There are no citations, no references, and no such topic exists on the internet. Totally OR. Horlo (talk) 08:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Clarification - I apologize if my previous reason for nomination was unclear, as it aparently was. I am not saying that there was no famine in 1932-33, I am saying that there was no "Soviet" famine at that time. There was a famine in Ukraine, and in a few other areas, but it was not a Soviet-wide phenomenon. All references always discuss this famine as an event in Ukraine, with people suffering in other areas as well. Hope that clears it up. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - quite frankly, I find this nomination disingenuous. Apparently Horlo wants to pass off the 1932-33 famine as an exclusively Ukrainian phenomenon (see Holodomor), when in fact it affected other areas of the Soviet Union as well. I'm guessing that Horlo thinks this will help promote his view that the famine was a deliberate act of genocide against the Ukrainian people, but Wikipedia is not here to promote particular political views. The 1932-33 Soviet famine is well documented, and this article already contains links to two scholarly references which Horlo has seen fit to completely ignore in his claim that "there are no citations, no references". This event is not only well documented, but the article also has considerable scope for expansion in my view. Gatoclass (talk) 08:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Added a new reference. Gatoclass (talk) 08:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added another one. Gatoclass (talk) 09:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added two more refs. I'm not going to bother to add any more, I found these amongst just the first half dozen hits on Google. Gatoclass (talk) 09:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - please read the WP policy about deletion - don't take it personally, and avoid personal attacks. Also, please take a look at those references - they are all reviews of one work, Davis and Wheatcroft. The last one is just an opinion piece from the Washington post. What strikes me most about all of the references is that they seem to be reactions against the famine of 1932-33 (actually, all of the references have different dates) being a Ukrainian phenomenon, not studies of the famine itself. There were no studies about the Great Soviet Famine until the international community started recognizing the Holodomor as a genocide. Then, suddenly, a book came out saying "no, no, it was everywhere". That's why this is not an encyclopedic article. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So it's only a recent allegation from two authors is it? (whose study of the famine just happens to be the definitive one). It seems you forgot Elkman, who is also quoted in the refs. But if that's not enough for you, here's what I found after another 30 seconds on Google - an eyewitness report from Manchester Guardian correspondent Gareth Jones from March 25 1933, describing the famine in - not Ukraine - but North Caucasus. Seems knowledge and reporting of the wider famine of 1932-33 has been around just a tad longer than you assert. Gatoclass (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another article, from Professor Mark Tauger of West Virginia University, citing no less an authority than Nicholas Werth on the Soviet famine:

Werth, in his chapter on the famine [ie from The Black Book of Communism], notes that the famine affected many regions outside Ukraine, including even Moscow and Ivanovo regions, and that famine mortality included other groups beside ethnic Ukrainians (185,188). Most serious scholars now do not accept the view that this was exclusively a "Ukrainian" famine. Gatoclass (talk) 19:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Kazakh Catastrophe (Famine in Soviet Kazakhstan, 1932-33). Gatoclass (talk) 19:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, you seem to be missing the point of an Encyclopedia. There were witness accounts of a famine in 1933, and I'm sure that there were also witness accounts of UFOs in 1933. That doesn't make it an article for an encyclopedia - Wikipedia is not a collection of stuff. There has been no scholarly study about the "Soviet Famine" - the Elkman ref is an re-statement of the Davis and Wheatcroft article. Please read it, and see.

Most serious scholars read references before using them, and most scholars of the time don't forget that there were armed guards around Ukraine keeping people in, and putting them back on the trains to the villages from which they fled (that's from one of your refs, by the way).

Please, stay cool, keep focussed on the article at hand - don't try to deny the Holodomor anymore.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 19:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He has denied nothing. Please stop telling people to 'stay cool', then turn right around and lie to discredit the references. SashaNein (talk) 00:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Horlo, I am not trying to "deny the Holodomor", but it does seem that you are intent upon denying the wider famine that afflicted other parts of the Soviet Union at the same time. Which I must say I find pretty extraordinary, given that you have spent the last six months using the denial of the Holodomor page to vigorously denounce famine deniers in that instance. Gatoclass (talk) 05:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, look, if I came across roughly, I apologize. However, after reading something like "help promote his view" (ignoring the sexist assumption) and "has seen fit to completely ignore in his claim" it is sometimes difficult to stay cool - so again, I apologize.

What I'm saying is this - many people died during the time of the USSR. No news there. Many were systematically killed by the government in every way conceivable, and some ways which a sane human mind cannot grasp. I personally lobbied for a long time for our local school board to include studies of Soviet atrocities, so that such mistakes are not repeated again. Everybody must know what happened.

However, that's not what this is about.

This is about a particular WP article. Again, please look in detail at the references. For example, in this article [[1]], it states that "most serious scholars do not now accept the view that this was exclusively a "Ukrainian" famine". However, the only supports for that statement (found at the bottom of page 2) are articles by R. Davies published in 1987 and a reference to an article published IN THE SOVIET UNION in 1988! How am I discrediting the references? That is not lying, nor trying to discredit articles, it is simply holding every article up to the same standard.

All studies of the Soviet Famine of 1932-33 always focus on Ukraine, where according to even by this [[2]] Maoist publication 4 million (in Ukraine) of 6 million (around the rest of the Soviet Union) were starved. How is that a Soviet famine? The famine of 1932-33 must never be forgotten, but the point is that it was not a USSR-wide phenomenon. Deaths from starvation happened in many places, but they were focussed in Ukraine, and the semantic difference is important. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 06:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No need to apologize, because I haven't been offended. However, I must point out that you have basically just managed to demolish your own argument, by admitting that "deaths from starvation happened in many places". That is just the point - the famine of 1932-33 wasn't exclusively a Ukrainian phenomenon - and although Ukraine was the area most affected, millions died outside the Ukraine too. As to your comments about Wheatcroft and Davies - has it ever occurred to you that they are so widely quoted precisely because their work is seen as the definitive study?

But in any case that is beside the point. I have now cited some half a dozen eminent historians - including three regarded as experts in the field - who have written about the 32-33 famine (not to mention the journalistic sources). That's more than enough to make this a notable topic. If you have information from reliable sources which challenges the notion that the famine was a significant phenomenon outside the borders of Ukraine, you are obviously free to add it to the article (within the usual policy parameters of course). Nominating the article for deletion is not the solution. Gatoclass (talk) 07:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)Hello, I think that maybe I have been unclear here - am I saying that people didn't starve all over the Soviet Union? No. Am I saying that people didn't suffer at the hands of the Soviet government all of the time? No.

I am saying that there wasn't one great all-encompassing Soviet famine. There are no sources linking the various events, because that cannot be shown. At the time, by the admission of many scholars, the USSR was quite disorganized. The centralization policies were just taking place, so a famine in one area would not necessarily be connected with a famine in another. Just like various "white" counter-revolutions were not necessarily connected during the 1917-21 Civil War. However, historians have since lumped such events together.

The reason that I nominated this article for deletion is not to belittle the suffering and gruesome deaths that millions suffered at the hands of the Soviets. The reason I nominated this article for deletion is that there is no evidence that all of the deaths all over the Soviet Union were caused by the same famine. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again - I just looked at the page again, looking for the three experts. However, I only found this article [[3]] written by Hiroaki Kuromiya, an expert in Stalinism, but not the Holodomor/Famine of 1932-33; and this article, [[4]] which summarises Wheatcroft's talks. Hardly something written by an expert in the field. Also, there is an Op-ed piece in the Washington post. There are not half a dozen eminent historians listed. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Clearly notable, encyclopedic and verifiable, per

Gatoclass's work. Kevin (talk) 10:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Comment - all of the sources provided simply comment on one publication (Davis & Wheatcroft). Thanks, Horlo (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per the reliable 3rd party sources. Although the name needs to be looked at as the sources themselves differ on when it began. The article could do with improvement but, I don't see where the neutrality is or can be disputed. Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The article is titled 1932-1933, but the lead states 1932-1934. Which is correct? Lugnuts (talk) 12:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's usually referred to as the 32-33 famine, so I fixed it to conform with the title. Gatoclass (talk) 12:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This AFD nom reeks of POV pushing. References that the "objective and totally unbiased" nominator claims to not exist have been added. SashaNein (talk) 13:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Hello, please take a look at those references - they are all reviews of one book, and include a newspaper opinion piece, not encyclopedic, scholarly work. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Strong and Speedy Keep Clearly notable ukexpat (talk) 14:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The nominator's rationale appears inaccurate. Maxa megalon 2000 17:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above. I don't understand the nominator's rationale that a famine is "not an encyclopedic topic", particularly one in which 5.7 million people are estimated to have died. Famines, like floods and pandemics, don't get the coverage that is accorded to wars, earthquakes and big explosions, but they are just as deadly. Mandsford (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Hello, my point is that this was not a "Soviet" famine - a vast majority of the deaths occurred in one country, Ukraine. I believe that almost 10 million people were starved in 1933, and it must be covered and studied (and if I had my drothers it would be taught at every elementary and high school in the world), but a) the title of this particular article makes it sound like it was USSR-wide, which it wasn't - again, a disproportionate number of deaths took place in one country; and b) every source/reference provided always focuses on Ukraine, which the article doesn't. I think in this case, the semantic difference is very important. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 06:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I believe you will find that the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union during this time period and the Soviet Union is the "country" in question during that time period. If your argument for deletion is one of semantics and article content (as opposed to lack of notability, etc) than the issue isn't one for AfD and should be discussed appropriately on the articles talk page. Jasynnash2 (talk) 11:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per many of the above comments. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keeep No reason to delete. Nick Dowling (talk) 08:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep — multiple reliable sources show that the event occured, and attracted academic interest. In the interests of limiting nationalistic slap-fights, I urge commentators to avoid remarking on the subject. --Haemo (talk) 10:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and penalise the deletion nominator for arogance. There was canibilism in places like Kurgan Oblast and Northern Kazakhstan in response to ...it was not a Soviet-wide phenomenon.... My own native Kuban, the Don, Central Black Earth regions. The bare existance of this article goes against WP:POINT of some editors who want to privatise the tragedy to Ukraine, and then push the genocide claim. Have a look, the WP:SYN navigation Template:Holodomor has been repeatedly added to article that are only distantly related to the Holodomor like Dekulakization and Collectivization in the Soviet Union. Also that template had the part of Soviet famine of 1932-1933 constantly removed without any talk page consensus. (Diffs can be provided on demand). --Kuban Cossack 12:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - hello, Kuban Cossack, first, please realise that "your own native Kuban" is not the entire Soviet Union. (Who is being arrogant?). Please look at a map of the Former Soviet Union, and then find the Kuban. If something is in Ukraine and the Kuban, it cannot be stated that it was Soviet-wide. Once again, it seems that there seems to be a language issue here -you cannot privatise a tragedy. You can privatize a factory, but not history. History happened, and it is not for WP to write it, just give info about what other people wrote. There is no info that there was a Soviet-Wide famine. Look, if you say the Irish Potato famine, it is understood that people all over Ireland were starving. If you say the famine in Ethiopia, it is understood that people all over Ethiopia starved. However, there is nothing saying that people all over the Soviet Union (I mean all over the Soviet Union - Kyiv to Kamchatka, not just in Ukraine and Kuban)starved. Also, another point to ponder - for another place, of course - what was the percentage of ethnic Ukrainians in the Kuban before 1933, and what was the percentage of ethnic Ukrainians in the kuban after 1933? Finally, perhaps you should not make claims like "punish the nominator for arogance" if you cannot even spell it - we have had many such discussions about the language issue in the past, so please, stay cool. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 19:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep as per everyone but the nominator. Nomination is factually incorrect - this is not original research and it has multiple independant sources. Edward321 (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.