Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Snub TV

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus leaned towards "keep". AfD is not cleanup, and just because there is a dispute doesn't mean an article cannot be written about it. (apologies for the double negative) LFaraone 01:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Snub TV[edit]

Snub TV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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— Snubtvcreator (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


The current wiki entry for SNUB TV is erroneous. SNUB TV was created by the partnership of Brenda Kelly and Peter Fowler in the UK. It's first outing was in the US when the UK team created and produced this show for Night Network from London but the series came to global prominence (sold into numerous territories around the world and had two compilation videos)when it commenced its three series for the BBC - 1989-1991. Much of those series contents can now be seen uploaded by fans onto You Tube.

The current 'version of events' is not only wrong - claiming the SNUB TV was actually created by the US people who managed the deal with Night Network but is actively damaging the 'brand' and ongoing activity of the SNUB TV team. We have been trying to resolve these issues for most of the year but it seems to have become a war of words. Meanwhile the page - albiet with comments - continues to be on Wikpedia and is the source that most often comes up in a online search for the series. This is now so very frustrating and is throwing up so many misconceptions that for us we would rather have no information than the page that is so wrong.

We would be happy to endeavour to get INDEPENDENT accounts of SNUB TV written that could eventually replace the current page but as this wrangle over versions of events has been going on so long, and so unproductively deletion is now our prefered short term solution to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snubtvcreator (talk • contribs) 09:34, 16 July 2013 (UTC) — Snubtvcreator (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

  • Delete - I've been talking to this editor for some two months at OTRS (2013051510005184). There are two opinions that are totally different and the other editor is not really interested in working with Snubtvcreator to come up with a definitive version. The article is very poorly referenced (just the one ref), so it would be very hard for anyone to decide on what is the real story. Thus in such an absence of good quality referenced data, the whole article is effectively WP:OR and should go  Ronhjones  (Talk) 18:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Issues can be resolved by editing. It was a very significant music programme and there are several sources on GBooks that could be used. If there's something controversial here that can't be properly sourced, that part can go - the entire article doesn't need to. --Michig (talk) 21:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here's some of those sources: GQ: "Conceived by TV novices Brenda Kelly and Peter "Pinko" Fowler, who met while working for indie label Rough Trade, Snub was like a small-screen fanzine, dispensing with presenters, making its own music videos, interviewing bands, and generally documenting alternative culture that was invisible elsewhere: it gave the Manic Street Preachers, among others, their TV debut.", Cultural Studies, The Stone Roses: War and Peace, Chicago Tribune, Los Angeles Times, The Scotsman, A Version of Reason. --Michig (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep While first declaring something of a COI, but probably less than that of the nominator, I invite a reading of the discussion on the talk page. Snubtvcreator seems to, rather than contribute to documentation of the latter illustrious history of the program, simply deny its US origins. The nomination refers to "Night Network", suggesting it was insignificant, when in fact it was Nightflight which was a popular coast-to-coast overnight network with millions of viewers. The nomination goes on as backup to refer to numerous likely WP:COPYVIO sources. In this diff summary Snubcreator then cites "problems for the producer" as a further rationale for deletion. I did a search on Google Books and the one reliable source I could come up with from the period - an Option Mag interview with host Brenda Kelly in 1987 - indeed directly ascribes the creative genesis of the program to Executive Producer Fran Duffy. [1] The lack of further documentation in the article on the later success is no reason to delete the earlier history, which itself could do with more sourcing, true. Wwwhatsup (talk) 06:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: SNUB TV 's orginators do not deny the fact that SNUB TV first aired on Night Network. Nor do we deny that Fran Duffy was the gobetween the originators / producers of the series and Night Network. Fran did broker the Night Network deal. But he did not come up with the programme format, content or do any of the production. So to say he was the originator is completely wrong. See this from JOHN PEEL in reviewing SNUB TV's first UK show - The Observer 8 January 1989 'The first SNUB TV was made for the US market for peanuts in the summer of 1987. It was shown on the country's largest cable network. This first British SNUB will feature in addition to the House of Love, clever Swiss duo Yello, Brtirappers the Cookie Crew and Fugazi recent and applauded Americans in London. Over chocoate last week, SNUB's Brenda Kelly and Peter Fowler told me future editions will include such companions to owls such as the Butthole Surfers, Sonic Youth.... With a theme provided by Adrian Sherwood's Barmy Army and a determination to bring us music from around the world, SNUB coms closer to being a definition of what I would wish to see and hear issuing from my television than anything since th short lived Revolver a decade ago. As this seems to be an unproductive back and forth, and is clearly getting nowhere, and Brenda Kelly and Peter Fowler are clearly the creators and producers of SNUB TV deletion is for now the only fair option — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snubtvcreator (talk • contribs) 10:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I support Brenda Kelly and Peter 'Pinko' Fowler in their request to delete the SNUB TV page while the matter is to be resolved. As a journalist writing about music at the time, especially about the independent music scene, I knew both of them and SNUB TV; their account of the history of the series, from its inception onward, is 100% accurate. Martin Aston, UK freelance writer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.195.194 (talk) 10:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Note: An editor has expressed a concern that 81.105.195.194 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. [reply]

  • Comment I note that Fowler has posted a history on the talk page that in no way contradicts what is in the article. It is just a question of finding the sources to back it up. Since the Duffy founding is challenged I have scanned in and posted on the Internet Archive the content of the Asbury Park Press source which says "Locally Duffy is remembered as a concert promoter savvy enough to spot talent in a young Bruce Springsteen and book him in the clubs of Asbury Park some 30 years ago. He also founded SNUB-TV showcasing alternative music on the USA network in the 1980s.", in order that it may be reliably referenced. Perhaps the University of Virginia may be prevailed upon for a copy of the 1989 Brenda Kelly interview that reinforces the Duffy founding. The claim above that Duffy did not "do any of the production" on the American series is risible, assertions of 100% veracity by UK freelance writers notwithstanding, while Fowler and Kelly by their own admission had zero input on the third US series. There is no argument that Fowler and Kelly produced and directed the first two US series, and entirely originated the UK series, although I might wonder about the role of Jeanette Lee in the latter. But none of this is material. As far as deletion goes only notability is an issue, and I don't think anyone is questioning that. I suggest that this AfD be speedily closed. Wwwhatsup (talk) 23:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I've nuked quite a bit of the article, the main reason being that this didn't really read like a neutral article. It wasn't promotional or anything like that, but read more like it was a blog entry or some other type of casual news site. I don't mean that in a bad way as far as entertainment or quality goes, but it just isn't exactly what we should have on a Wikipedia article. I'm also finding mentions of the series, so I'm adding those in as I find them. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The big problem I've found with verifying that the show was ever initially produced with the BBC in mind is that there's nothing to back this up other than the say so of the person who started the AfD. We can't go with someone on a Wikipedia page saying that it was originally planned for the BBC and not for a US show. That's not how Wikipedia rolls. Now if someone involved with the TV show wanted to do something along the lines of oh, contacting someone in a reliable source such as the Guardian and have them write an article on the history of Snub TV that confirms that the show started out as a BBC show (hint hint), then we can change this accordingly. But so far all we really have is the one source which apparently talks about it as starting as part of the USA network. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, I think I've found a happy medium. How about this sentence: "The show's concept was originally conceived by American producer Fran Duffy and aired as part of the Night Flight variety show while concurrently running on the BBC, where it ran for four seasons." It doesn't say that it initially aired on either channel, but instead says that it ran on both channels and that the BBC ran it for four seasons as opposed to the first season on Night Flight. But the big problem here is that we can't outright delete an entry just because it doesn't say what you want it to. It doesn't matter if you think you're right or not- the problem is whether or not we can actually verify this through reliable sources. So far the show has a lot of mentions but very little that goes into depth about its origins. Given that we have a lot and I repeat, a lot of people claiming to be someone, we can't go just by someone's say so. Even if you are who you say you are, we still can't go by that alone. It's fairly common for there to be differing opinions when it comes to something's origin, so we need to have this in a RS to ensure that it's been researched and verified. Going just by say-so is how a lot of rumors and mis-credits have happened, which is what we try to avoid. Most times things are usually what they claim to be, but there's enough of the other type of stuff that we have to do this. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone in and edited the above. The UK and US versions were not concurrent. The BBC series was sometime later. I don't think this point is under contention. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per my comments above. The only way we can definitively say that this was initially planned for a certain channel is if we have reliable sources that say that it was. Given that this seems to have been huge in the UK during its time, it probably won't be too overly hard to find a RS that would be willing to give coverage for this. I recommend looking into getting someone from the Guardian, Spin magazine, or NME. They either seem to be the type that cover a lot of stuff or would be interested in covering this show. I know it's not as easy as calling them up and telling them to write something, but they're a good place to start. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:44, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE - All of this just goes to support the request for deletion of the page whilst we resolve this dispute. Brenda Kelly and Peter Fowler created the format and produced ALL the series of SNUB TV. (except a series later made by Duffy without our permission or knowledge) Fran Duffy met Kelly in NYC where she was hosting a session on UK indie labels at the New Music Seminar and asked her if she would consider producing a show for US tv (based on the magazine she founded and edited that covered the independent label scene :The Catalogue). She then approached Fowler to work with her on this. They came up with a totally new and different idea to that of basing the show on The Catalogue. Kelly and Fowler commissioned original music (Adrian Sherwood) and Graphics (Paul White Me Co), and produced ALL the material in the UK for the Nightflight series - for 1987. They sent Duffy a tape of each series. He in no way could be said to have founded the show. They fell out with Duffy after 12 shows and insufficient funds to even cover all the origination costs. They then took a year to find a new commission and a home for it in the UK (where they and most of the artists they covered were based). Janet Street Porter commissioned it for the BBC. It ran for three series in the UK, sold internationally and had some best of compilations. 'The third series of SNUB in the US' referred to ... Apparently - as we only heard rumour of this year - and unbeknowst to us - the SNUB TV team - Duffy actually ripped off the titles and format and without our knowledge or consent continued to make the show for USA Network (Actually a copyright violation). I do appreciate Tokoy Girls comments and we will seek some further independent verification - though apparently the support we did get from Martin Aston who was (is) a music journalist writing for both sides of the pond has been trashed by wwwhatsup! Our point is that Fran Duffy did approach Kelly (she was an acknowledged expert on the independent music scene with formidable contacts) and ask her to produce the show and yes did get us the deal, but we (Kelly/Fowler) came up with our original format (not what Duffy had thought of) , Duffy did NONE of the production nor did he 'found' or originate SNUB TV
Keep - not a reliable source this one but hopefully that'll convince everyone this was a real TV show, although it's not as well remembered (in my mind) compared to Rapido or The Late Show, where The Stone Roses infamously harrangued Tracey MacLeod with calls of "amateurs!" a minute in, or (heaven forbid) The Word. I'm not interested in whose idea it was to make the show, or who actually did what - if it's verified as being a BBC TV show (and a Google Books search for "snub tv bbc" confirms that it is), general consensus per WP:TVSHOW deems it notable. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article has now been cleaned up. The author of unsigned comment above is still in denial of a few of years of development that went into the show before Kelly got involved, and that in the latter stages included Fowler. Perhaps sources will emerge. How such radical content made it on to USA national tv is a notable tale worthy of document. It served to spur MTV to develop its own programming of alternative music. It's a pity that both Loder and Duffy are not around to be interviewed, but there are others, including Fowler and MacFie. Not to mention other New York people involved in production. It's even possible that the original contracts between Snub Inc and Southern can be produced. Essentially it was a work-for-hire under US law. It could even be well argued that the UK series was a copyright violation, not that it was ever a point of contention. Not that any of this is material here. I suggest again that the AfD be dismissed. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- I note that the nom appears to be a single purpose account related to the nomination. If the article is inaccurate, the answer is not to delete it, but to correct it. I did not see the programme have have no idea who is telling the truth. The fact that the subject has generated so much controversy suggests to me that the subject is notable. Hence some article should be kept. Peterkingiron (talk) 08:27, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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