Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Snow! The Musical

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Snow! The Musical[edit]

NN holiday musical that, apparently, didn't even do that well. (Tho, you gotta love a good disambig line....) — Music Maker 21:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. The article speaks for itself. Yechiel Man 23:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No assertion of notability is made. -- Ssilvers 01:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comment~~ Keep What exactly are the notability guidelines for musical productions? I'm familiar with WP:MUSIC but that applies to people or groups, rather than theatrical productions. This musical had a notable star, and there are links to non-trivial coverage in The Sun and The Stage, which is probably enough to keep this, unless there are specific guidelines suggesting that isn't enough. Masaruemoto 01:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response. Apparently, there are no notability guidelines pertaining specifically to musicals. Part of my reasoning in nominating so many of these articles, in addition to the desire to rid the servers of some undeniable effluvium, is in an attempt to ascertain what the WP community at large will consider a notable musical, and what it will not. My own personal criteria were thus:

If the musical achieved any production whatsoever in the two main English-language theatre cities, New York or London, it is notable.
If the musical achieved a production in a "Broadway-sized" theater (1000 seats or more) in a major secondary theatre city (Toronto, San Diego, Sydney, etc.), then it is notable.
If the musical achieved a production in a major festival or fringe festival in major cities known for such (New York or Edinburgh), then it is notable.
If the musical achieved one production in a relatively uncompetitive town, theater-wise (Boston, Atlanta, etc.), then the musical is not notable.
If the musical exists mainly to be licensed by schools, it is not notable.

To me, simply having a production somewhere that had a notable actor does not make the musical notable -- the actor could very well have done it some time before he or she was famous, or, conversely, on the way down the ladder and that was all the work he or she could get. But, like I said, the main reason for nominating so many was to see what everyone else thinks, then maybe get some guidelines together for inclusion in WP:NOTE. So, my suggestion would be to vote your conscience.... — Music Maker 02:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By your own criteria (#1 the musical achieved any production whatsoever in... London), this musical is notable. It achieved a production in central London (it says London in the second line). If it's notable by your own criteria, you appear to be contradicting yourself by nominating it as non-notable. Until a specific WP:N guideline for musical productions is introduced we should just use the general guidline, ie significant coverage in reliable sources, which is taken care of by The Sun and The Stage articles (and a few others), so I'd recommend keeping this as before. Masaruemoto 04:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I should have added "that aren't a holiday-time flop". The article basically says that it played for a month and no one went to see it. This deserves inclusion in WP? — Music Maker 06:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your criteria fail Wikipedia's policy to counter systemic bias. A musical is not non-notable just because it hasn't played in an English-speaking country, and favouring US and UK productions over those of other countries is also biased. --Charlene 06:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not me who's favoring US and UK productions over other countries; it's the theatre community at large. I am attempting to discern some sort of reasoning in determining the notability requirements for musicals in WP. The rationale of "this has been produced somewhere so it deserves inclusion" simply doesn't make any sense. Yes, my criteria for inclusion used English-speaking cities. The fact of the matter is that New York and London are the two most competitive cities on the planet when it comes to musical theatre. "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere."

I nominated maybe three musicals that did not achieve an English-language production. I'm not saying that a musical is NN if it didn't play in an English-speaking city; I'm using typical musical theatre conventions as to what constitutes a major production.

Are you really saying that a musical that achieved three performances in a random small town in Siberia deserve inclusion?— Music Maker 06:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)j[reply]

And those conventions come from US and UK musical theatre, which is not the entire story. --Charlene 21:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 08:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep seems notable as a flop to me. Johnbod 23:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not notable. -- Steve Hart 14:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.