Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Smooth Island (Ontario)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Any discussion about renaming/merging can take place on the article's talk page. Randykitty (talk) 18:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Smooth Island (Ontario)[edit]

Smooth Island (Ontario) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No third party sources to establish notability. 117Avenue (talk) 03:44, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per nom. The two references provided do not confirm notability of this tiny island. Hwy43 (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In light of new research, I have changed my vote to Rename (please see below for explanation). Jkokavec (talk) 05:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The article DOES include third party references to substantiate it. Just because an island is small does not mean it is irrelevant. Sailors travelling past the island will want to know more about the island, including what it's name is. It is notable especially to people residing and working in the vicinity. What is the issue here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkokavec (talk • contribs) 06:58, 21 December 2014 (UTC) [reply]
  • Am I seeing double? Okay, but seriously, both sources seem to be exhaustive lists of islands, neither of which offer significant coverage to establish notability. A website simply listing an island on Google Maps is far from significant. Google news search reveals zero relevant results. As per Wikipedia's guidelines, the only relevant information that can be properly written about Smooth Island on Wikipedia is that it exists - and you'd have to be privy to that information in order to look this page up in the first place. Delete, this article is useless. ZappyGun (talk to me)What I've done for Wikipedia 07:53, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and Redirect to Ontario article. The island can be mentioned there, article only has to be WP:V verifiable, not WP:GNG notable. AadaamS (talk) 09:38, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica1000 10:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We have List of islands of Ontario#Georgian Bay but it seems not to be complete. Thincat (talk) 14:53, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment appearing in the Gazetteer of Canada does not make this island notable. Hwy43 (talk) 00:55, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is another "Smooth Island" in Georgian Bay 44°53′46″N 79°54′36″W / 44.896°N 79.91°W / 44.896; -79.91 which seems even more notable. Thincat (talk) 14:53, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There's also a Smooth Island in the Hudson Strait 62°00′00″N 72°16′59″W / 62°N 72.283°W / 62; -72.283, the only Canadian mention on the disambiguation page before these recent edits [1]. 117Avenue (talk) 02:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to WP:GEOLAND: "Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the feature should be included in a more general article on local geography. For example, a river island with no information available except the name and the location should probably be described in the article on the river." It's not notable enough to be mentioned in the Georgian Bay article but I think it makes sense to redirect to List of islands of Ontario#Georgian Bay. T.C.Haliburtontalk nerdy to me 16:49, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as above. I clicked on the coordinates, and even google maps doesn't include it's name. There are 30,000 + islands nearby, I don't think every one of them is notable. Mattximus (talk) 17:50, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, no, its name is certainly there look. For me anyway. Thincat (talk) 19:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - No evidence of notability. I don't see a policy that all named islands should be kept. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:32, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Useful reference: I feel this link may constructively contribute to this discussion. Please type "Smooth Island" into the search field on this page: http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/toporama/index.html. (It appears there may be a number of islands called "Smooth Island" in Canada - possibly explains some of the confusion).--Jkokavec (talk) 06:48, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. This article is now a mix of information about unrelated islands, seemingly too hard to tangle. Yes, islands are notable, but this article is enough of a mess that it's time to throw it away and restart. Nyttend (talk) 13:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete since we can't seem to establish which Smooth Island this article is about. It was originally supposedly about a Smooth Island in Nunavut, and the most recent source added is exclusively about maritime navigation in and around Nova Scotia, both hundreds of miles away from Georgian Bay. It seems likely from the discussion that there are multiple Smooth Islands in Ontario alone, so the disambiguator is incomplete. There is not enough here for the article to stand on its own so at best it should be redirected, but it should not be called Smooth Island (Ontario), thus it should be deleted. Ivanvector (talk) 18:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The provided references are not substantive coverage of the island in reliable sources, but rather serve only as verification that the island exists. Islands can be notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia, absolutely — but small and unpopulated islands are not entitled to Wikipedia articles which demonstrate little more than the fact that they exist. No prejudice against recreation in the future if real sources supporting substantive content about the island can be located — but being able to locate it on Google Maps is not, in and of itself, enough to qualify a place for a Wikipedia article if that's all you can do for referencing. Bearcat (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I think that the delete voters here are unaware of the existence of WP:NGEO, which states that named geographical features are usually notable. Sources that help this meet NGEO include this. --Jakob (talk) 19:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That source does not help meet WP:NGEO (which was mentioned above). NGEO suggests that named features "are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist." (emphasis added) The sources that have been provided don't really satisfy that criteria. Ivanvector (talk) 21:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying a paragraph-long description of the island is a statistic? I think not. --Jakob (talk) 22:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's a paragraph-long description of various trees and rocks both on and off the island. It's not even a description of the island itself. Yes, it's essentially just statistics. Ivanvector (talk) 22:33, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Statistics, in my mind, refer to the following information: name (etymology is not a statistic, though), dimensions, elevation, and location. And, yes, it is about the topography of the island. --Jakob (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree; this is why we can have articles about such diminutive spots as Starve Island. I'm in agreement with you, Jakec, on WP:NGEO; the reason I want to delete it is that we've unfixably conflated bits about three different islands. Better to have nothing than to present readers with information that's so badly incorrect. Nyttend (talk) 01:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Nyttend: I've rewritten it from scratch, using sources that I'm confident all refer to the island in Ontario. --Jakob (talk) 01:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. WP:TNT only applies when an article is so bad that it would need to be rewritten from scratch and when nobody's currently around to do the from-scratch rewriting. Jakec has gotten rid of the problems that led me to suggest WP:TNT while simultaneously demonstrating the island's notability. Nyttend (talk) 02:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename current article to "Smooth Island, Muskoka, Ontario", then create new page for "Smooth Island, Parry Sound, Ontario".
Extended content

Collapsing: this is a deletion discussion, not the article's talk page. Nyttend (talk) 13:10, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let me please explain:
I believe there are 2 islands called "Smooth Island", in Ontario, within 20kms of each other.
The first island (a much smaller one, and the one currently listed in this article's coordinates) can be found here:
(Google maps)[1], (alternative reference)[2]
  • I believe a page should be created for this island, called "Smooth Island, Parry Sound, Ontario", in accordance with the name given to it at this official atlas provided by the Canadian government[3] (again, type "Smooth Island" into the search bar".
The second island (the larger one - the one Jakob is referring to in the article description) is here
(Google maps)[4]
  • I believe the title of the current page should be renamed to "Smooth Island, Muskoka, Ontario", in accordance with the same Canadian government atlas[5].
  • It helps to open both the Google Maps links I've provided in separate tabs so you can see how close they are to each other.
  • We have had a very productive debate about these islands it seems we have all learned a great deal about the potential ambiguity associated with islands named "Smooth Island" in Canada. In order to ensure that future researchers don't become confused, I feel it is imperative to create two separate pages for these two islands named "Smooth Island" in ONTARIO, Canada. Thanks very much Jakob for rewriting the article.Jkokavec (talk) 05:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The title of this page should be changed to: "Smooth Island, Muskoka, Ontario"Jkokavec (talk) 06:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.google.com/maps/place/45%C2%B007'23.7%22N+80%C2%B006'58.6%22W/@45.0316897,-80.1337795,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en
  2. ^ http://www.geodata.us/canada_names_maps/maps.php?featureid=FCPNH&f=230
  3. ^ http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/toporama/index.html#
  4. ^ https://www.google.com/maps/place/Smooth+Island,+Georgian+Bay,+ON,+Canada/@45.0311883,-80.0934841,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x4d2ae123e1bec453:0x3b9d9b0286e4a290?hl=en
  5. ^ http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/toporama/index.html#
Thank you to Jkokavec for useful comments, which should be taken into account. Not sure it is proper for those comments to have been "collapse"d or not. --doncram 23:45, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Smooth Island, Parry Sound, Ontario has the same issues as Smooth Island (Ontario) did when I nominated it, all it and the references say is that it exists. 117Avenue (talk) 19:24, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. If the title for the topic of the current article should be longer (in order to distinguish vs. other islands of similar name), the article can be moved to that title after the AFD is closed. We're not supposed to make moves during the AFD itself, by AFD guidelines. The title is not an issue for AFD. It can just be changed by any editor, if not controversial, or a wp:RM should be opened if there is likely to be any disagreement. --doncram 23:45, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ivanvector and Bearcat: You have !voted delete on the grounds that the article only indicates the island's existence. However, now it does quite more than just indicate its existence and is a fair-sized stub. --Jakob (talk) 19:44, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I have to stand by my delete !vote here. Existence is not notability. The fact that there are so many islands with this generic name, and that there are two practically right on top of each other, is very strong evidence of non-notability. There are tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of islands in Ontario just like this one. Ivanvector (talk) 01:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – and rename "Smooth Island, Muskoka, Ontario" as suggested by Jkokavec. Thanks to the recent additions by Jakec and Jkokavec, it now has 5 sources (4 if we disregard Google Maps) and enough information about the island. The newer article by Jkokavec has fewer sources, but that's a separate matter. If both survive, add hatnotes to distinguish them. – Margin1522 (talk) 07:31, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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