Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Skiing in Lebanon

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was - Keep . Not closing this as no-consensus as most of the objections to its existence prior to the 5th appear to have been adequately addressed and rendered moot. - Peripitus (Talk) 13:06, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Skiing in Lebanon[edit]

Skiing in Lebanon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

This is the virtually same article that was deleted less than 24 hours ago at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ski Lebanon. It just had some fixes so that the copyvio from this site wasn't so blatant. Damiens.rf 03:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Note that this page is also up for WP:CSD#G4; I'm not sure if this is eligible for it however, considering the last AfD ended in a speedy and non-admin closure. --/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 08:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - No opinion on the speedy as I didn't see the original. That said, there is nothing notable about the "topic", whatever it might be. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 13:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I removed the G4, Mendaliv is correct, this isn't eligible as the previous AFD never ran its course. Let this run its course. I recommend someone try to find sources to help ascertain the notability of this particular pasttime in this particular country. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Speaking as the previous tagger, the previously deleted article was an exact copy and paste job from that skileb page, a copyrighted website, and thus unambiguously satisfied the "blatant copyright infringement" criterion of CSD G12, warranting deletion on sight by an administrator. In terms of this nomination, I agree with Keeper. No prejudice against a) letting this running its course and b) pursual of sources being added to assert notability - this reveals something that this article could be a part of perhaps? WilliamH (talk) 22:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The fact that many info is from website does only confirm reliability. As per notability, what is not notable for somebody in Kansas City might be notable in the Middle East and I think it is intersesting for everybody on earth to know that one can ski in the Middle-East. I need to add that following the editing conflict on this article with Damiens.fr, this editor has tagged and requested deletion of many article with links to this one. I believe this is unfair and is enough to withdraw any credibility from this editor. Lebprofiler (talk) 23:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)Lebprofiler[reply]
Comment: Please bear in mind that what an editor from Kansas City finds notable against what an editor from the Middle East finds notable isn't really a determining factor - reliable, verifiable, independent coverage is. WilliamH (talk) 16:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it's pretty clearly a notable subject. I quickly found two sources, which I've cited: substantial coverage in reliable third party sources of the subject at hand, namely the overall practice of skiing in the country of Lebanon. Certainly there are many more sources out of which a proper article can be built. If there is a copyvio here that's a separate matter and the offending material should be deleted. Wikidemo (talk) 14:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You seem to have found sources for the (uncontroversial) fact that Skiing exists in Lebanon. Unless we manage to find sources for the History section (the bulk of the article), we should consider merging the reliable information (just one paragraph?) to Lebanon or some other article. --Damiens.rf 15:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those sources are more than that, they show that skiing in Lebanon is a distinct phenomenon on its own that is worth discussing overall as a topic narrower than Lebanon or skiing overall, and broader than simply one or another of the six resorts. We do have some comparable articles about other jurisdictions, e.g. List of ski areas and resorts in the United States, List of ski areas and resorts in Switzerland, List of Colorado ski resorts, etc. Wikidemo (talk) 20:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Damiens.rf started this issue by claiming it was blantant copyright which is not very true because the info in the site http://www.skimzaar.com/faraya-mzaar/ski-resort/history-skiing.asp is of public knowledge. What is funny is that it is all about history, whle Damiens.rf now claims he has issues with reliability of history. mr Damiens.rf, you have vandalized articles related to this topic and some individuals associated. I dont know who you are, but I think you are the problem. So let us delete thsi one and all the others you have tagged for deletion. Anyway, people can find the info about the topic and the individuas all over the internet, if they need soe references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nabuchodonozor (talk • contribs) 19:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a note, copyright violation would be the use of copied text, not the reproduction of information found elsewhere. The question with copyrights is not whether the information is publicly available, but instead whether a large section of text is copied word-for-word or with only slight modification. Wikidemo (talk) 20:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment User:Damiens.rf claims history has no reference. Please compare with text found on the web(text below). We are a group lebanese skier trying to have this topic on wikipedia but User:Damiens.rf does not like it for some reason (We think we know but have no proof)so he is tagging and tagging related article and probably creating vandal activity under fake users to confuse and help his case for deletion.

here is the text

1935

In 1935, French entrepreneurs established the first ski school at Le Grand Cèdre Hotel in the Cedars forest in northern Lebanon.

In 1937, the school moved to a high mountain barrack and became known as the Military ski School.

At this time, the first ski competitions began taking place in Lebanon in Dahr-El-Baidar, Laqlouq, Kneisseh and the Cedars.

The renowned clubs of the day were the ENB, Alpes Françaises, Lebanese Danafill and the Becharreh Team.

In 1947, Lebanese skiers went abroad to compete in international competitions for the first time. Michel Samen raised the Lebanese flag at the championship in Chamonix. In 1948, the Lebanese team, consisting of Mounir Itani, Jean Samen, Abdelwahab El Rifai and Ibrahim Geagea, competed in the Winter Olympics at Saint Moritz.

1961

1961 saw the official establishment of the Lebanese Ski Federation under President Dr. Emile Riachi.

This led to the prevalence of the Lebanese skiers on the world stage: Innsbruck (1964), Greece (1967), and Olympic Games in Sapporo (1972), Innsbruck (1976), Lake Placid (1980), Schaladming (1984), Calgary (1988) and Albertville (1992).

Furthermore, in 1967 and 1972 the federation cooperated with the Lebanese Army to lead them to victory in the World Championship of Military Ski (WCMS).

A highlight of the Lebanese skiing history also took place in 1967 when the 26th annual International Ski Federation (ISF) conference was held in Beirut. It was then the idea was born to host the World Ski Championship and bring the best skiers in the world to Lebanon.

The successful event took place yearly until the was began in 1975. Nevertheless, during the Lebanese war, the Lebanese Ski Federation continued to organize competitions and send skiers abroad. The Lebanese Championship eventually resumed after 16 years of disruption —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebprofiler (talk • contribs) 22:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'm neutral as regards notability at the moment but I can see no issue with a copyvio from the site the nominator mentioned (i.e. this) Nk.sheridan   Talk 23:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nor can I see a copyvio issue from this. It is obviously used as a source for the history section and is given as such in the article but there is no copy and paste. Nk.sheridan   Talk 23:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Guys, I swear to god skiing in Lebanon is a very nice topic, with a very interesting history. Now if you think it is not notable enough, forget about an article in Wikipedia, we just thought the topic had its place in an electronic encyclopedia. Alternatively, come to Lebanon if you like skiing. It is very nice. CHECK THIS SITE:

http://www.bootsnall.com/adventures/articles/06-09/skiing-in-lebanon.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebprofiler (talk • contribs) 23:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Michelle, this is exactly what you are doing when you contribute in articles about Sidney and Australian people and topic as you have done a lot. Is it advertising? What do "fans" have as an advantage? I dont own a resort or sell hod dogs on the slopes of Lebanese resorts. I just like skiing and my country. Just as you. Who better than you can talk and contribute about Australia in an Encyclopedia?

Lebprofiler (talk) 09:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)Lebprofiler[reply]

the fact you are citing websites that are essentially adverts and do not meet the Wikipedia criteria for reliable sources. None of my edits on any topic have I added refs that are essentially advertising. Anyone can edit or comment any article on Wikipedia, see WP:OWN, "fans" must exercise WP:NPOV or risk being seen as having a conflict of interest. Michellecrisp (talk) 14:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Detele As the creator of this page I request it is deleted. I dont think there is anything positive with this. I have had argument with people who are anonymous and they post articles saying I am doing personal attacks ! How can you attack somebody who is virtual. The only user that gives her name was Michelle and I tried to argue politely. I respect her answer and I will stop arguing about it. There is a real issue here. It is defamation. So I suggest this article and the other one I created are deleted immediately. Let us en this, pleaaaase ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebprofiler (talk • contribs) 16:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and Merge to the Lebanon article. Notability not established as per lack of reliable sources.Nk.sheridan   Talk 20:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - As I stated on User:Lebprofilers talkpage (this diff) notable Lebanese ski resorts could instead have stubs created for each of them. Cheers, Nk.sheridan   Talk 20:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - this article is in great need of clean up, but the subject itself is noteworthy.(AFP article from 2007) Lebanon appears to have a Ski Federation[1], which lists quite a few ski competitions (notably Lebanese national championships and a couple Asian childrens/junior alpine championships). The articles claim that there are six ski resorts in the country also seems accurate. ← George [talk] 23:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Ski Federation's website appears to have a much more in depth history, that could prove a vital source to improving this article: Google's translation of the French site. ← George [talk] 23:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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