Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siege of Doriskos

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 02:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Doriskos[edit]

Unsourced sub-stub, no references cited; probably based on original research, as this appears to be one of a number of similar articles which form something of a walled garden of OR-based articles. (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of the Tigris, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siege of Kapisa and User:ChrisO/Ancient Persian problems for related discussions.) Tagged for cleanup since April 2008 but none has been forthcoming. I've tried to substantiate the topic of the article but have found no information on a "Siege of Doriskos". -- ChrisO (talk) 23:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as original research unless sourcing can be found. Edward321 (talk) 23:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There was a place called Doriskos that played a (minor) role in the Persian wars, but the notion of a "siege of Doriskos" is original research. If there's anything substantial enough to warrant even mentioning Doriskos in connection with the Persian Wars, it should be in an article about the Persian wars, not in a discrete article about a made-up battle. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep I found this, I see we are jumping into conclusions again? Here it is, ALL of it,Wow, THANKS.--Ariobarza (talk) 04:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It is easy to find entries in google books or google scholar which contain both "siege" and "Doriskos". Putting quotes around "Siege of Doriskos", nothing comes up on either search. Mathsci (talk) 07:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Unsourced article which seems at the moment to be original research. Mathsci (talk) 07:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Ariobraza has managed to produce 90 hits from Google Books that contain the words "siege" and "Doriskos", but not a source that establishes this particular "Siege of Doriskos." If he can produce sources that verify this article, I will gladly change my opinion to keep, but until then I defer to Akhilleus' judgement. A ni Mate 04:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete due to lack of evidence that such a siege took place. It's clear from Ariobarza's own search that there is a serious problem here. dougweller (talk) 06:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Original research. --Folantin (talk) 10:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: It's not only not in my copy of An Encyclopedia of Battles, the battle isn't even mentioned in the Greco-Persian War section. What's the creator's source that this action ever existed? RGTraynor 17:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I remember where I got this from, it was from the The history of the Persian Empire book, I would not and never have made up a battle article, I remember now, I also found it in 3 other books, This is one that mentions the other two note, NOTE it says, Persians resisted siege (just like in Eion) at the fort of Doriskos, which the Greeks never managed to capture Read all the yellow thanks!--Ariobarza (talk) 20:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]
Delete - No sources. The reference source above absolutely does not say that "Persians resisted siege (just like in Eion) at the fort of Doriskos, which the Greeks never managed to capture". It says that there was a siege at Eion, and it says that the Greeks did not manage to expel Maskames from Doriskos. The chronological table, starting on Page 175 of the source listed above, does not mention Doriskos at all, though it mentions a large number of attacks and sieges on other locales. Until reputable sources can be found that unambiguously state that there was a siege of Doriskos, by whom, when it was and what the result was, this article should be deleted. Risker (talk) 21:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We keep having Ariobarza's stub nominated for AFD. I assume he is getting his information from somewhere. He would be much less likely to get so many of his articles nominated for AFD if he took the trouble to add a citation of the sources used. I am not an expert on ancient history, but there are sources and (I think) all ancient authors are available in English translations. These are the ultimate sources for anything we know of that period. Some of these events may be referred to in a single sentence in a single author. That can be quoted (but will need its precise citation (probably author, work, and chapter). Issues concerning this may have been discussed by modern academic authors. A summary of theri views can also properly be included. However, anything that does not fall into these categories failed WP:V and constitutes WP:OR, which must be deleted. If Ariobarza wishes not to keep having to fight AFD debates over his work he needs to learn to say precisely where he got the information from. The syntax for referencing is easily available in the "wiki markup" item of the dropdown menu below, also as the last item of the tool bar above (when editing), so there is no excuse for not citing sources. This is the only way to ensure that articles on disputed subjects are kept. Finally, rely on what you find in sources; don't use your imagination. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ariobarza's research method appears to consist of trawling Google Books for snippets to stitch together to create a narrative that you won't find in any reliable source. That's the underlying problem here, basically original research by synthesis - it seems to be the common theme of these AfDs. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say that avoiding AfDs has a lot more to do with not trying to paste sources together only when challenged, in favor of writing articles in the first place from solid sources. Every time. Period. RGTraynor 04:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ariobarza's link seems to make it reasonably clear that something occurred that could be described as a siege of Doriskos. I'm not going to vote delete unless someone clearly articulates why that source is not sufficient evidence to warrant an article. Everyking (talk) 04:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where you're getting that from - see Risker's comment above. The source absolutely does not say anything about a siege at Doriskos. That seems to be an original interpretation by Ariobarza. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I sometimes find valid sources, BUT it is not my fault that Google does not let me preview it unless I buy the book, so that does not make [my wrong timed creation of a couple of articles, when I was inexperienced] it OR or SYN!--Ariobarza (talk) 09:37, 8 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]

Comment I found it, the title confirmation, and the details of the siege is provided on the articles page that has one reference, [1] OMG!--Ariobarza (talk) 05:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]

- Comment An inline citation is the way to do this, and in this case a quote is, I think, required. dougweller (talk) 06:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I also seem to find a battle at doriskos, in early 480 BC and between the inhabitants of the fort/ city revolting from previous Persian rule, and Xerxes fighting (using mostly the Cissians) and beating them to take the town back so he can assemble his forces for the invasion of Greece, Battle of Doriscus There are different spellings, Doriscos, Doriscus, Doriskos, Doriskus. But, for Doriskos I FOUND the most hits with 7,020 hits! Thank you all.--Ariobarza (talk) 06:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]
Comment. According to the History of Herodotus, Book VII, Doriscus referred to a large coastal plain in Thrace near the river-crossing of the Hebrus, the site of a Persian garrison. According to Herodotus, Xerxes I amassed, reviewed and counted his troops and fleet there before "marching on Greece" (the counting of infantry involved groups of them gathering in a large marked circle). There is no later mention of Doriscus by Herodotus in his History. Xerxes' review of his forces at Doriscus is described on wikipedia in Battle of Thermopylae#Primary sources. Mathsci (talk) 07:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Herodotus VII.106 refers to the fact that, after Xerxes failed campaign, the garrison at Doriscus continued to be held by Mascames, despite prolonged attempts by the Greeks to take it. This is also mentioned by Pierre Briant on page 555 of his book "From Cyrus to Alexander". It is also mentioned in Mitford's 19th century History of Greece here, but with no other sources other than Herodotus VII.106. Mathsci (talk) 08:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I found it, the title confirmation, and the details of the siege is provided on the articles page that has one reference, click if you dare, and scroll to the bottom of the page, [2] bye.--Ariobarza (talk) 09:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]
- Please don't write things such as 'if you dare', that's irritating, and even more please, why can't you be specific? What am I supposed to find at the bottom of the page? Your inability to be specific and your 'dare' comment makes it look as though you are playing games with other editors. dougweller (talk) 10:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC )
It should be in yellow, its 80% down the page, it exactly says "Siege of Doriskos," you can't miss it, and provides further details. I also suggest checking the main page of the article here to see if it has improved and look for the sources provided on the main page of the article to check if this siege is from my "imagination," thanks.--Ariobarza (talk) 10:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]
- Please check the link, there is nothing in yellow and the words Siege of -however you spell Doriskos - aren't there. dougweller (talk) 10:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec x 2) I have now included the account of Herodotus based on secondary sources in the article. It is mentioned in Mitford's History of Greece, where as in Herodotus VII.106 (the only classical source referred to in the literature by scholars like Briant and Kuhrt) it is indicated that Doriscus withstood Greek attacks into the times of Herodotus himself. Interestingly there is a schoolbook of accompanying questions for Mitford's book here by the Reverend John Major of Wisbech Grammar School (no relation!) which has a question on the sieges of Eion and Doriscus.

My suggestion at present is to use the Herodotus account and the host of secondary accounts to write a full article on the location and history of Doriskos/Doriscus during and after the Persian wars. There is ample material (more references are given about the location and function in another reference I added to the article). Finding VII.106 in the Polymnia of Herodotus puts this discussion in a different light. So far the latinized form of Doriscus has been used in ancient history articles like Battle of Thermopylae. BTW when I click on the link for McGregor's book, no text is available, even if I scroll down the page. Please could you give a better link? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 10:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If your on the googlebooks and you first see the book, there is a part under the small text that says add to my library, more editions... click on more editions, and search in those, IF you have not already done this, And Doug, its on page 67 read it all the way through if you have to, it spells it Doriscus, but the most popular and widely accepted spelling is Doriskos, I have already checked this, thank you.--Ariobarza (talk) 11:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]

On typing "siege of doriscus" into google books, I get the non-viewable book; but the quote "seige of doriscus" does come up in the entry along with a reference to page 67. On typing "Mascames siege Doriscus", I get to see the sentence "There were others; for example, Doriscus on the north Aegaean coast, where for many years the defence was conducted by the courageous Persian Mascames" from page 40 of the book. Mathsci (talk) 11:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I do not get what you mean, are you asking me a question or commenting on agreeing with me? This is better for Doug, I hope, Siege of Doriskos. What also baffles me is that some books say Xerxes fought a battle on Doriskos, before he initially invaded Greece, were the inhabitants of the city revolting or something? I know Xerxes was gathering his troops their for the invasion, by do some think Herodotus is saying a battle happpened there in the BEGining of the invasion, I am still confused, check it out, Battle of Doriskos. Bye.--Ariobarza (talk) 23:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]

McGregor's book cannot be read serially on google books. The other reference to Herodotus VII.62 as the Battle of Doriscus is just a mistake by Daniel Potts. There is no Battle of Doriscus in Herodotus, just a counting and reviewing of the troops on the coastal plains prior to the Battle of Thermopylae. I don't think there is the slightest ambiguity about that in any other authors, some like Pierre Briant, a Professeur at the Collège de France, classicists of the highest standing. Apart from Herodotus' Polymnia (Book VII of his Historia), there seems to be no other account from antiquity of the events at Doriscus, i.e. primary source. The accounts referred to in the article by Briant and Kuhrt are unambiguous, rely on Herodotus as a source, and agree with almost all other modern and nineteenth century commentaries. Arguing otherwise seems to be clutching at straws. Please go and read the History of Herodotus VII and the secondary commentaries on it (a searchable wikisource translation is available at one click in the article). You seem to have made a mistake if you are suggesting that the troops, in excess of one million, amassed at Doriscus fought a battle at Doriscus against the Greeks prior to Thermopylae. Perhaps this is not what you are claiming, but please could you clarify yourself? Mathsci (talk) 00:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the wiksource for Πολύμνια in Ancient Greek, if that's easier for you. Mathsci (talk) 01:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.