Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shuba Jay

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is that there is sufficient coverage to establish notability and there is no consensus that the article fails WP:ONEEVENT either. Davewild (talk) 09:59, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Shuba Jay[edit]

Shuba Jay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Very tragic story (one of 298) of a passenger on board the MH17 plane. But the news coverage about her is entirely surrounding her death. She seems to be a very minor actor in 'local' TV shows. I've searched for anything pre-July 2014 and can only find this, about her choice to give birth at home - there's nothing to suggest she is a well known personality apart from a brief mention she is an "actor and business owner". For obvious reasons each passenger on MH17 will have a moving story that will come out in the news this month, but should they really each be profiled on Wikipedia? This is clearly a WP:ONEEVENT case. My condolences go to Shuba's family. Sionk (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tenuous. If Social Networking was a notable play I'd take interest. And my great-grandfather was called 'popular' in his obituary, it just meant people liked him. But you're obviously entitled to your opinion. Sionk (talk) 16:34, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're comparing apples to oranges: An obituary is a self-published notice written by people who are closely related. USA Today, on the other hand, is a very well-established, independent source. -A1candidate (talk) 22:25, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is a strange definition of "obituary". I think that must be American English.Deb (talk) 09:38, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Malaysia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I also object to the statement by WWGB, "Death alone does not make one notable". Death did not make her notable – it prompted the creation of the article. Not the same thing. It is actually possible to be notable according to GNG, and still not have an article on wikipedia. It just may not have been created yet. Judging from what A1candidate have found, it appears to me that is exactly the case here. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:42, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: seems to be pretty well-known in Malaysia. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Actually she's not well known at all and the sources need a much more careful degree of examination. The TV shows listed are all obscure cable shows. The giveaway here, of course, is that none of the shows have their own wikipedia articles (and trust me, this is not a case of Western bias; the Malaysian TV industry is well covered by wikipedia). The other big giveaway is that no-one can find any sources from Malaysia (including the many English language newspapers in Malaysia such as the New Straits Times and the Star) that discuss her before her death. So the USA Today has it completely wrong. The reference to Malaysian media having covered her home birth is a total fallacy. The coverage of her home birth is here: [1]. As you can see, she is one of three ordinary women covered by the lifestyle article. There is only a very brief passing reference, by this reliable Malaysian media outlet (The Star), to her even being an actor. She simply was not well known at all and was covered here as an ordinary women giving her life experience. So what we are seeing here is a fairly egregious case of media outlets - particularly one western outlet - wrongly talking up her prominence after her death. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:19, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, please go to List of Malaysia-related topics and check out how comprehensive Wikipedia's coverage of the Malaysian film industry really is. We have a grand total of 21 actors and actresses, 7 films, and 4 directors representing a country with a population of 30 million people. I took a quick survey of the quality of the articles, and I doubt half of the 21 actors and actresses would survive AfD in their current condition. Take look at the following examples:
Kavita Sidhu - Stub article with no reliable reference
Aziz M. Osman - Stub article filled with red links
Erra Fazira - Stub article filled with red links
Jalaluddin Hassan - Stub article without a single reference
Hani Mohsin - 4 sentence page without a single reference
M. Nasir - Single sentence and a single reference
Rosyam Nor - Entire filmography filled with red links
Saiful Apek - Stub article without a single reference
Jamal Abdillah - 3 sentence stub but won a competition with unclear notability (red link)
These are the people who actually have articles rather than red links. As for Shuba Jaya, USA Today says she is a "popular actress", so if you claim otherwise, please provide a reliable reference instead of accusing the media of "wrongly talking up her prominence". In fact, I don't think she's any less notable than any of these stub actors and actresses who probably won't survive AfD if they're nominated for deletion. -A1candidate (talk) 23:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are well in excess of 100 Wikipedia articles about Malaysian actors/actresses. That list must be well out of date. Sionk (talk) 10:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And what does that tell us about our coverage of the Malaysian film industry? It is, as you've just said, well out of date. I've just taken a closer look at the "Malaysian actresses" category, since you say there are more biographies listed there. I think we can agree that the quality of these articles is far lower than what we typically expect on Wikipedia and the biography of Erra Fazira is a good an example of what's wrong:
Starting 2001, Fazira begun to work with many different directors for her films including Ahmad Idham's Mr. Cinderella (2002); A. Razak Mohaideen's Cinta Kolestrol (2003) and others. In 2004, Fazira went on to star opposite her then former husband, Yusry bin Abdul Halim, in the 2004 Hingga Hujung Nyawa, one of the four films she starred in directed by Mohaideen. Through this film, Fazira once again was awarded the Malaysian Film Festival Award for Best Actress as for the portrayal of Nora Halim in the movie.
In 2002, Fazira acted in a telefilm and hosted the show, Fesyen Tempo.
Not only are there more red than blue links, the entire article is virtually unsourced except for a single promotional blog entry. Will Fazira's biography survive AfD if she's nominated for deletion? Probably not. Yet her article claims that she received critical acclaim and a Malaysia Film Festival award (but we will never know if this is true since there's not a single reliable reference)
Many of the other biographies are in an even worse state. Cindy Alisha is a single sentence stub and she's one of the most unnotable biographies I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Surprisingly, nobody has ever nominated her for deletion. -A1candidate (talk) 13:22, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is all getting irrelevant. We don't keep articles on the basis they're better than another article. So stop twisting my words (I didn't say coverage of the Malaysian film industry was out-of-date), copypasting other Wikipedia articles, or other diversionary tactics. Sionk (talk) 16:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Seems notable enough. She was mentioned in several major sources prior to her death. I don't see anybody nominating the Australian and Dutch victims' articles for deletion. Illegitimate Barrister 20:38, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Where? What major news sources wrote about her before her death? None (though mentions would not confer notability anyway). As for the Dutch and Australian victims, I don't see any new articles. One mentioned in MH17 is an elected Dutch Senator, another was President of the International AIDS Society, the other is an award winning author (both the later written many years ago).Sionk (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
According to USA Today, "Local newspapers reported on the home birth of her daughter Kaela two years ago" -A1candidate (talk) 23:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The USA Today article post-dates her death, as you well know. Sionk (talk) 10:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The USA Today article refers to local newspaper reports that pre-dates her death -A1candidate (talk) 13:25, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - She is a Tamil actress so Tamil sources should help. Also check Malay and Chinese sources WhisperToMe (talk) 23:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Found a Vietnamese source: http://www.nguoiduatin.vn/my-nhan-xau-so-tren-chuyen-bay-mh17-va-moi-tinh-o-viet-nam-a140641.html WhisperToMe (talk) 01:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - She seems notable enough to me with a significant number of worthy sources mentioning her specifically. I cant help but feel this deletion request is more of a case of unwitting systematic bias than anything else as there is a long list of Western actor articles on Wikipedia with a better case for getting deleted that never do. --Discott (talk) 07:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. At least that is a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument with a good motive. There are still very many articles about very notable Malaysian actors that need sourcing and developing. Sionk (talk) 10:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep there is a variety of independent sources writing about her, so passes WP:GNG. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - independent sourcing. clear case of passing WP:GNG. Had this been a Western world actress then I doubt this would have been nominated. But that is just my guess.--BabbaQ (talk) 09:27, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you'd like to retract that. I'm fed up with being called a racist. Please read my nomination rationale. Sionk (talk) 10:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I normally do not respond to comments in AfD discussions, however, I cannot let BabbaO's unwarranted and discourteous attack pass without comment. This debate is headed for "no consensus" and I accept that as the will of the contributors. Let us not lose sight of the facts that Jay was a part-time actress [2] who had ONE identified reliable source to her name prior to her death.[3] Yes, editors are building a case for notability since her death, but the nominator made an honest decision to proceed to AfD based on the limited citations at hand. I have no doubt that he acted honourably and without prejudice. BabbaQ would do well to assume good faith, restrict his comments to the facts and not engage in personal attacks. For shame. WWGB (talk) 11:17, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Racist? where do I call you a racist? Do not label my comments with things I have never stated. I am frankly fed up with users who are so insecure that they can not handle other users opinions without name-calling. WWGB that goes for you as well, I know you are on the delete-side of this discussion but do not yourself engage in personal attacks. I simply stated my rationale for Keep and that users assume bad faith based on the Delete-Keep-sides are simply a shame. And "discourteous attack", WWGB please even you should know better than being that hostile at AfD discussion. Now move on. Thanks.--BabbaQ (talk) 12:06, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep digging ..... WWGB (talk) 12:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep biting, it only proves my point .....--BabbaQ (talk) 12:17, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • An unfortunate delete. This appears to be a case of WP:1E where the subject of the article had insufficient sources to meet WP:GNG pre-MH17. The 2014 NST article about birth failed to mention what the subject was notable for (as a former NST employee, or actor?). I tried looking up all three possible names on Factiva and I could not locate a single article (including in Malay or Tamil language). If anyone else is able to present more reliable, independent sources before MH17 I would be happy to reconsider. - Mailer Diablo 12:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment one person wanted her name removed from Mh17 article because she didnt have article, now that she has an article its being deleted, he even put up a [notable?] tag next to her name when she didnt have an article not that it was wikilinked to appear red that he should have added that. Fact is she is a Malaysian actress and even if small time she is notable and needs to be listed in there, also why has Malay PM's step grandmother been removed from MH article, notable is notable as in prominent not necessarily having an article on wiki or press coverage, or articles only geared to western appeal? 175.110.222.144 (talk) 13:35, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - According to Malaysiakini, Shuba was recognised by Prestige Magazine as one of Malaysia’s top 40 individuals under the age of 40. -A1candidate (talk) 14:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep there are a variety of independent sources writing about outside of the context of the crash. 89.242.180.69 (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per to WP:1E, It tells: On the other hand, if an event is of sufficient importance, even relatively minor participants may require their own articles. This is not simply an airplane crash, but an event significantly affecting world politics. My very best wishes (talk) 13:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No one will disagree the event was of world importance. However, Shuba and the other 297 people were unwitting victims in the wrong place at the wrong time, hardly 'participants'. Sionk (talk) 13:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • She was not just one of the passengers, but someone who was sufficiently notable prior to the crash. That's why we have so many publications about her right now. She is probably someone who was well known nationally, rather than internationally. Having poor coverage in English sources is typical in such cases, but it does not matter what was the language of sources (I saw a Vietnamise source above) per our notability criteria. My very best wishes (talk) 20:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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