Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seiran Kobayashi
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Drmies (talk) 02:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Seiran Kobayashi[edit]
- Seiran Kobayashi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Unsourced. There is one source, but it's too primary to stand in isolation on a BLP Andy Dingley (talk) 14:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I would remind the nominator of WP:NRV: "Editors evaluating notability should consider not only any sources currently named in an article, but also the possibility of notability-indicating sources that are not currently named in the article. Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation." Lack of sources is itself not a reason for deletion. There must be a concerted effort to find sources first. And they do exist, since she is a pretty popular child actress. According to Oricon, she has appeared in over 107 TV programs and 7 TV commericals ([1]). She released a single with another child actress that has charted ([2]). She even has her own line of kimono: [3]. One can find press coverage about her: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], etc. I could go on. Easily passes WP:GNG. Michitaro (talk) 00:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. As per the above comments, the subject of this article has received enough media coverage to satisfy basic notability criteria. I have already added a few more references to the article. --DAJF (talk) 01:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per lack of WP:BEFORE. Cavarrone 16:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I am sorry. Seiran Kobayashi is a young actress representing Japan. In Japan, he is an idol more famous than AKB48. She is also a political movement house said to be the youngest in Japan. Can the news web site in Japan be used as sauce in wikipedia? The site is homepages of the newspaper publishing company representing Japan, such as Asahi Shimbun and Sankei Shimbun. --生活支持者 (talk) 08:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)([14][reply]
- When referred to the "Kobayashi Seiran politician", HP of 37'000 affairs hit. Moreover, in the "Kobayashi Seiran", it was found to the extent that it was the same as "Ichiro Ozawa" and "Yoshihiko Noda." --生活支持者 (talk) 08:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC))[reply]
- I had noticed that an earlier version of the article said that she is a politician. The only source offered for that was a blog page of a political activist which says nothing about her being a politician. Blogs in general are not accepted as reliable sources on Wikipedia. The number of web hits with two keywords is also not evidence, since it picks up random pairings. If you can find a reliable source (see WP:RS) that states that an 8-year-old child is a politician (and links to articles in major Japanese newspapers are acceptable), please add it, but I doubt you can do it. Perhaps you are confusing "politician" with "political activist"? I see no evidence for the latter either, but if you have RS, show them. Michitaro (talk) 12:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem is not whether she is "notable", but whether we can (and I agree, not that we have) prove notability to WP:N and WP:BLPN. This is for an 8 year old child actress, where notability will be marginal at most. I have no idea whether she is Shirley Temple, Patsy Kensit or Honey Boo Boo. Our biggest problem though are the Japanese-only sources. I don't believe that a BLP on en:WP can survive with nothing that isn't either COI or non-English. We've already seen crazy nonsense that an 8 year old is a politician opposed to abortion, allegedly supported by a source! As such a claim is effectively unexaminable here, then this just shouldn't stand as a BLP without more robust sources that meet WP:V. Are we losing vital content on an important topic? Not, I believe, on en:WP. If this actress is notable to the en readership, then that will be demonstrated by English language sources. This is after all a BLP, and we have standards. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid you are misunderstanding not only the sourcing in this case, but also some of the basic principles of WP:V. Nowhere in WP:V does it say that non-English sources do not count. Just because a source is in a foreign language does not mean the information in unverifiable. We have plenty of users on en.Wikipedia who are multi-lingual (both DAJF and I are fluent in Japanese) and are trusted, per WP:AGF, to check the content of those sources. That is why the sources about her being a politician were checked, found inadequate, and that assertion removed. It is examinable and we are examining it. To assert that articles must cater to the so-called "en readership" touches on some of the issues raised in WP:BIAS. To bring this up in an AfD is to tread into the territory of WP:UNKNOWNHERE. Finally, since it is true English sources are preferable if there are some, here are a few sources, of varying degrees of depth, in English: [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], etc. Michitaro (talk) 22:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems that I was wrong. Seiran Kobayashi and Kanon Tani of Tomoki Hino of a "political activist" and an intimate thing are clear also from the utterance of their twitter etc.("(as opposed to cooperation by Tomoki Hino) I always appreciate! I need your help well from now on! " [21]) However, there was no sauce with high credibility that Seiran Kobayashi is a "politician." I am sorry. Seiran Kobayashi is a Japanese national idol and I think that English sauce also exists. There are a lot of reports about the Kobayashi Seiran in a Japanese newspaper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 生活支持者 (talk • contribs) 09:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- We still have to meet the standards of BLP, and we have to do so on en:WP. The article, as it stood at nomination, was clearly failing to do this, even though it had some Japanese sources. If it's cut back now to, "She is an 8 year old actress, no Oscars as yet, very popular despite", then I'm happy that we can source that to WP:V through the Japanese sources and also through at least some English language sources (such as TokyoGraph) that do confirm the basic claims. This is a minor claim, it doesn't need a sophisticated source.
- Personally I see no need for this article, in this shallow detail and this early in her career, on en:WP. Anyone interested would do better to read the ja:WP article. However if the sources you note above could please be added to this article, then I'm happy that it would at least meet our policy for retention here. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:20, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:BLP certainly requires us to be more diligent with regard to WP:V, but apart from the initial hurdle in WP:BLPPROD, whether an article is a BLP or not does not significantly affect an AfD discussion. There are various criteria for bios, but they do not distinguish between living and dead (in fact, using BLP as an argument touches on WP:SUSC). BLP demand vigilance, but I might note that DAJF among others is very diligent with these Japanese BLP. I can understand your subjective doubts about such articles. I don't like the fact that there seems to be an article for every single Japanese voice actor that ever existed, but subjective feelings are forbidden in AfD. We must judge by the objective criteria specified in WP:GNG and elsewhere, and by these, she passes. Michitaro (talk) 13:27, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems that I was wrong. Seiran Kobayashi and Kanon Tani of Tomoki Hino of a "political activist" and an intimate thing are clear also from the utterance of their twitter etc.("(as opposed to cooperation by Tomoki Hino) I always appreciate! I need your help well from now on! " [21]) However, there was no sauce with high credibility that Seiran Kobayashi is a "politician." I am sorry. Seiran Kobayashi is a Japanese national idol and I think that English sauce also exists. There are a lot of reports about the Kobayashi Seiran in a Japanese newspaper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 生活支持者 (talk • contribs) 09:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid you are misunderstanding not only the sourcing in this case, but also some of the basic principles of WP:V. Nowhere in WP:V does it say that non-English sources do not count. Just because a source is in a foreign language does not mean the information in unverifiable. We have plenty of users on en.Wikipedia who are multi-lingual (both DAJF and I are fluent in Japanese) and are trusted, per WP:AGF, to check the content of those sources. That is why the sources about her being a politician were checked, found inadequate, and that assertion removed. It is examinable and we are examining it. To assert that articles must cater to the so-called "en readership" touches on some of the issues raised in WP:BIAS. To bring this up in an AfD is to tread into the territory of WP:UNKNOWNHERE. Finally, since it is true English sources are preferable if there are some, here are a few sources, of varying degrees of depth, in English: [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], etc. Michitaro (talk) 22:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem is not whether she is "notable", but whether we can (and I agree, not that we have) prove notability to WP:N and WP:BLPN. This is for an 8 year old child actress, where notability will be marginal at most. I have no idea whether she is Shirley Temple, Patsy Kensit or Honey Boo Boo. Our biggest problem though are the Japanese-only sources. I don't believe that a BLP on en:WP can survive with nothing that isn't either COI or non-English. We've already seen crazy nonsense that an 8 year old is a politician opposed to abortion, allegedly supported by a source! As such a claim is effectively unexaminable here, then this just shouldn't stand as a BLP without more robust sources that meet WP:V. Are we losing vital content on an important topic? Not, I believe, on en:WP. If this actress is notable to the en readership, then that will be demonstrated by English language sources. This is after all a BLP, and we have standards. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I had noticed that an earlier version of the article said that she is a politician. The only source offered for that was a blog page of a political activist which says nothing about her being a politician. Blogs in general are not accepted as reliable sources on Wikipedia. The number of web hits with two keywords is also not evidence, since it picks up random pairings. If you can find a reliable source (see WP:RS) that states that an 8-year-old child is a politician (and links to articles in major Japanese newspapers are acceptable), please add it, but I doubt you can do it. Perhaps you are confusing "politician" with "political activist"? I see no evidence for the latter either, but if you have RS, show them. Michitaro (talk) 12:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.