Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Hamilton (voice actor)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 09:31, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Hamilton (voice actor)[edit]

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Sarah Hamilton (voice actor) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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I redirected the article, but it has been restored. Does not meet WP:NACTOR. Very few roles (see IMDb). Hamilton has voiced the character April Ryan (The Longest Journey) in The Longest Journey, but notability is not WP:INHERITED. Sources provided are about the game, half are about her medical issues. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 08:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I find the sources used in the article, some are iffy, others trivial mentions. All I bring up on my own is an article saying she's asking for help with medical bills. [1]. I don't think we're at GNG. Oaktree b (talk) 14:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:BASIC - coverage in the article includes a 2000 review in Just Adventure that includes a focus on her performance, a 2010 source from Rock Paper Shotgun about voice direction that refers to her as "the memorable voice of April Ryan in Tørnquist's Longest Journey games" for context, a 2013 source from Polygon that includes secondary context about her and her career in addition to interview content, and then there is coverage directly focused on the medical issues of e.g. "Voice actor Sarah Hamilton, best known in the gaming community for her role voicing protagonist April Ryan in Funcom's The Longest Journey and Dreamfall adventure games" (Polygon, 2013). Also, per WP:NACTOR, it appears she has had significant roles in multiple notable [...] productions. Beccaynr (talk) 17:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. For BASIC, we need significant coverage. The Just Adventure review says "April is brought to life by the voice of Sarah Hamilton. The overall voice acting in The Longest Journey is superb, and Funcom is to be commended for its excellent translation from Norwegian. Hamilton especially captures the inflection nuances that allow us to believe in April's growth as a woman". That's not a "focus on her performance", but a passing mention. The RPS piece is about voice acting in general, not about Hamilton specifically. The Polygon piece, while does mention Hamilton, is mainly about developer Tornquist. The piece says it up pretty clearly: "Hamilton's resume is a hodgepodge of various disconnected acting roles and voice work. She can be heard on commercials, has read for audiobooks and, beyond her time with Tornquist and the team, had a hand in two kiddie games — of the "learn-to-read" variety, she says." It's terrible she had those medical issues, but it doesn't establish her any further as a voice actor. IMDb lists a total of five credits, three of which are voicing the character April Ryan, the other being Dancer #1 in Tricks (no article) and voicing a character in This Is the Police II (no article), the sequel to This Is the Police. So we come back to The Longest Journey, but notability is not inherited. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:12, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BASIC also states, If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability, so from my view, this guideline permits the combination of biographical and career coverage over time, and we have more than passing mentions/name drops as well as information that can be used to further develop the article. Also, multiple outlets found her to be noteworthy when they reported her health issues, so it is part of her biography (in the 2021 AfD for this article, I had mentioned this in reference to a part of the WP:ACTOR guideline that has since been removed). A merge/redirect also seems contraindicated by her significant roles in more than one notable production (The Longest Journey and also Dreamfall). Beccaynr (talk) 20:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreeing with Beccaynr. Also, WP:GNG specifically states that a subject of an article "does not need to be the main topic of the source material," just so long as it isn't a trivial mention - as in, multiple sentences are dedicated to covering Hamilton specifically. Even though some of the sources don't directly deal with her as the main topic, they still present a multitude of verifiable facts about her background. The Polygon source Beccanyr mentioned dedicates about 500 words about her background, including her experience as a voice actor, her cancer diagnosis and how her reprisal in Dreamfall affected the game developers. Just because the article doesn't have her in the front and center doesn't mean info about her isn't noticeable. How could any reader of that article ignore a large subsection of an article, let alone any reasonable editor consider that 500-word subsection a mere "trivial mention"? She clearly had a significant impact on the development of the game, so much so that the Polygon writer went out of their way to write about her in detail.
The RPS source also doesn't just name-drop her. While yes, it is about voice acting in general, it details info about her experiences as a voice actor as well, establishing her as a notable person in that field. I also counted that about 400 words were dedicated to her in that piece, far surpassing a trivial mention.
Finally, I'm unsure if Just Adventure is a reliable source, but she has full-length articles written about her in The Escapist, Engadget, Eurogamer and another Polygon article. These sources demonstrate that she meets WP:NACTOR not merely through portraying a character in a video game, but with verifiable evidence about her background that goes far beyond a trivial appearance in a couple of works. She snugly meets WP:BASIC and GNG too. PantheonRadiance (talk) 10:00, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To reiterate, Hamilton is a voice actor, predominantly known for voicing character April Ryan in The Longest Journey and its sequels Dreamfall: The Longest Journey and Dreamfall Chapters. According to IMDb, she has five roles on IMDb, three of which are voicing Ryan. Behind the Voice Actors lists two roles, again the same character of Ryan.

To go over the sources once more:

  • While mentioned, the Rock Paper Shotgun piece is about voice acting, not about Hamilton specifically. Hamilton is mentioned as portraying Ryan
  • The Just Adventure piece is an interview with The Longest Journey game director Tornquist and mentions Hamilton twice
  • The Polygon piece called "The Longest Journey of Ragnar Tornquist" is about him again, and his work on The Longest Journey. The Hamilton bit is again about her work as Ryan and not having worked much as an other since and her medical issues.
  • The Escapist link is down, but thankfully there's the Wayback Machine. And what is about? It's an update about the crowdfunding campaing, that Hamilton would appear in the then-upcoming Dreamfall Chapters.
  • The following three sources referenced is the same news item by a different outlet. That's WP:CHURNALISM. Note that Hamilton isn't even mentioned by name, everything is in relation to her voicing Ryan
    • Polygon: "The Longest Journey voice actor is seeking help with MS medical bills"
    • Engadget: "Longest Journey voice actor seeking help for medical bills"
    • Eurogamer: "The Longest Journey lead actress needs money for medical expenses"
  • The last reference, Statement Arts' about page, is a primary source and doesn't help with notability.

Perhaps I've missed something. There's the custom WP:VG/RS search engine, through which sources considered reliable by WP:VG can be searched. Looking up "sarah hamilton", there's nothing much else. See Engadget's tag page, it just lists the one article already referenced. Eurogamer Germany has a one line entry: "The Longest Journey. Sarah Hamilton, die Stimme von April Ryan, bittet um finanzielle Unterstützung, um ihre Arztrechnungen bezahlen zu können"), with a link to her GoFundMe. There's a fictional character called Sarah Hamilton in Mystery of Neuschwanstein, mentioned in a review by Touch Arcade. And Hamilton voices a character in This Is the Police II, by Nintendo World Report.

Everything about Hamilton is in relationship to her voicing April Ryan in The Longest Journey video game series. She barely has any other notable work. Even the news about her medical issues are in the tone of "this person who voices that character that you know from that game needs money for her medical expenses". soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 16:43, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First, thanks for pointing out the churnalism instead of knowing this and claiming they're all intellectually independent articles. That is a good faith argument.
* Rock, Paper, Shotgun source: Mix of prose and quotes type-interview with Hamilton. Not independent of the subject and mostly primary source for her.
* Source of unknown reliability, but it's an interview with a Ragnar Tornquist anyways. It is a secondary source but there's really nothing useful. Barely 2 namedrops that Hamilton voices a character named April and is doing a good job.
* Another mixed prose/quotes type-interview mostly Hamilton statements to Polygon talking about herself. Not independent and mostly primary source.
* The medical expenses articles are tragic and thankfully these are secondary sources, but really don't provide much in terms of notability. They give notability to the facet of Hamilton's medical expenses, which hardly makes someone notable.
* I'm not seeing Hamilton mentioned on the Statement Arts about page. Also, if you meant to link to an "affiliated" or "staff" profile that is self-published by the website on the website about her, that is not allowed according to WP:BLPSPS.
The Touch Arcade and Nintendo World Report sources barely mention her. This type of sourcing serves no purpose and does nothing for notability. The bar for notability, especially in AfD discussions, is strikingly low on EN WP but I think we can do a lot better than this.
Overall, I don't see what case can be made for her for WP:NBASIC or other notability criteria. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete I don't think BASIC is met here, even by the standard of cobbling together mentions. Coverage of her health issues is one thing, but it's not sustained; you can't assemble more than a stub about the individual. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:30, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete per David Fuchs. There are a lot of WP:TRIVIALMENTIONs and just not enough to meet WP:NACTOR. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Beccaynr and my comment above. In my opinion, none of the "Delete" arguments seem convincing enough to counter the consensus already presented in the last two AfDs. PantheonRadiance (talk) 10:00, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I'm not seeing the significant coverage. The medical bill stuff is incredibly sad commentary on the state of modern medical systems...but isn't helping in solidifying her own notability. I recommend merging any of the relevant and reliably sourced content to the April Ryan article to minimize lost content at least. Sergecross73 msg me 17:20, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Notwithstanding the reliability or not of sources, like whatever "justadventure.com" is, many of the sources being posted are interviews and the mixed prose/quotes type of content/interviews where the subject is talking about themselves are always non-independent, and largely or fully primary. While it is a common misconception that "sources exist" automatically means notability, WP:NBASIC requires secondary, reliable sources independent of the subject. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    A number of the sources are definitely reliable and secondary coverage. The bigger issue is definitely the lack of significant coverage. Sergecross73 msg me 23:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes the lack of significant coverage is a big issue although many would claim (incorrectly) that the sourcing available is already significant coverage. Many of the sources, such as provided in this AfD, are non-independent. That is what I referring to. Like many other minor figures, Hamilton's notability also suffers from "The life of X according to X" since lots of sourcing is dependent on her. Surprisingly, she has more secondary sourcing than more well-known people I've seen in AfDs do. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 00:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 12:17, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy keep. Notability is easily established by numerous reliable sources. I’m surprised this article was even nominated. Curntag (talk) 14:35, 28 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock[reply]
Hi Curntag, as a registered editor, you've been here a little over 24 hours. I see you've replied randomly on other AfDs as well. Please familiarise yourself with the deletion guideline; you are citing WP:SPEEDYKEEP when it's clear my nomination is not in bad faith or disruptive. What are the numerous reliable sources you speak of? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 15:33, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't cite any "speedy" keep criteria. It's not just something you say for emphasis or just because there are sources in existence... Sergecross73 msg me 20:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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