Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Safwat Ghayur

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. yep the consensus seems quite evident now JForget 00:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Safwat Ghayur[edit]

Safwat Ghayur (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Strong Delete I agree that this person was one of the brilliant police officers in Pakistan but he is not notable to be placed here. He was a Grade-20 Police Officers, those we have around 3000 in entire Pakistan, only. He was the 58th Commandant of Frontier Constabulary, we never had article about any of the first 57s. The article also seems to story of a Magazine or Newspaper, especially written and edited in favour the martyred and beloved Safwat Ghayoor, rather a simple article. There are even no citations for many claims. --TurnWorst (talk) 09:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep I can only say that this one time editor has come back to haunt my articles by unnecessarily nominating them for deletion. This martyred Officer was a Vanguard against the current fight against Terrorism. One of his junior Malik Saad, who was also martyred in a suicide bomb blast has also been graced with an entry on Wikipedia. A simple Google with his name will yield thousands of results as seen over here [1]. Perhaps the sentiments of the entire Pashtun population can be summed up in this article which recently appeared in a leading daily of Pakistan [2]. This nomination is nothing else but a joke and based entirely on bad faith, perhaps as a sore retaliation to my earlier blocking of certain vanity entries of this user's sock puppets. I recommend a strong keep to honour this commander of War against Terrorism. -- MARWAT  11:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dear -- MARWAT , please comment on objections raised by me instead of hanky pankies. Malik Saad was much Sr. to Safwat Ghayur, you are wrong. Malik Saad has an article because he is recepient of Presidential Medal. Malik Saad, whom you have given as a reference in support of this article was CCPO (Capial City Police Officer), an officer of Grade-20. Let me know how many other CCPOs of Pakistan are having article here on Wikpedia? None, as they doesn't qualify as per WP Notability. Please see the deletion log for aother CCPO Abdul Majeed Khan Marwat. The only distinguish between Malik Saad and other CCPOs is Presidential Medal. As far as Safwat is concerned he, no qualm, was a second name of gallant and also the frontline soldier in War Against Terror. But what makes him so notable? Just google, yahoo and other search engines? I am a journalist myself, as my articles are published on various internet sites, different newspapers and magazines, my name will bear links to hundreds of websites where I am given very good place but it doesn't mean that I am too notable having name on search engine at hundreds of places. Why not Safwat Ghayur, ex-Commandant of Frontier Constabulary having an article before his martyrdom, if he was so notable? Just martyrdom makes him notable? If yes, then where are the articles of 600 other polie officers, 7-10 thousands of soldiers and many civilians who were martyred in War Against Terror? If being Commandant FC makes him so notable so where are the articles about the previous Commandants from the times of British Raj till December 2009, till the transfer of last Commandant Zafar ul Lah Khan, who was even serving in Grade-21 and is even promoted to the level of Director General of FIA? Why are you quoting a blog's link by terming it a leading newspaper? Wikipedia is not a racial forum or sentimental avenue where one culd presurrise and break the laws. I think rather arguing on a baseless thing with baseless arguments, we must spare time for creating healthy articles. --TurnWorst (talk) 19:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT - I have nothing more to say except that you are the same editor who has been vandalizing my earlier articles. As for your mumbo-jumbo about Grades, I can only say that you must be kidding by mentioning some God Damn Grades over here in utter disrespect of the sacrifice made by these brave lads of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. As for your absurdities regarding Ismail Khan’s eulogy to the Martyr published in Daily Dawn’s edition of 9th August 2010, which I had earlier on linked from a blog, I may like to give you now the actual link over here [3]. Please go there and read it with utmost care. Now something about the seniority and juniority of Malik Saad Shaheed and Safwat Ghayur Shaheed. Malik Saad Shaheed was from 17th Common Batch of Civil Services and Safwat Ghayur Shaheed was from 9th Common Batch of Civil Services. Please correct your unreferenced record. And without taking away anything from the valor of Malik Saad Shaheed and his Medals or Laurels, let me humbly say that may be you are aware of the fact that Government of Pakistan has already, as a beginning, announced one of the Highest Civil Gallantry Award known as Sitara-i-Shujaat for Safwat Ghayur Shaheed (the reference is already provided in the main article). I have nothing more to say and the closing editor will decide for himself/herself as to how much biased this nomination is. -- MARWAT  05:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why personal attacks on me, this is the article regarding the deletion of safwat Ghayur not to discuss me. Suppose I am the most-wanted and the No. 1 bandit of the does it makes this article notable or non-notable? If I am the world No.1 liar but I say that Sky is Blue and you quarrel no it is black, so should everyone believe you because I am so so so? why aren't you refering to the objections I raised?
The government has announced so far and not hooured him with the Sitara-i-Shujaat. Even if it is honoured, like it is honoured to thousands of men and women, does it make him notable? Where are the articles about the rest of recepeitns of the same awards? I agree Safwat was from 9th common and Malik Saad from 17th but who was promoted first to Grade-20? It was Malik Saad. So Safwat stands Jr to him. Malik Saad was CCPO back in 2006 and Safwat became in 2008-09. I request to closing editor, that for a while curse be upon me if I am the same person with whom my fellow is confusing me with, but just examine and go-through the objections I have raised here about the non-notability. Were they replied or answered accordingly? Attacking me, rather answering my querries shows that how much intrest was there to create a non-notable and personal liked article. --TurnWorst (talk) 06:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Attention Closing Editor(s) / Administrators Please go to the following links, where -- MARWAT  is asking, pleading and requesting his fellows to cast their vote in the favour of this article. This shows how biasedly this article Safwat Ghayur was created. He have no solid answers about the objections I raised. Please follow and see the following
User talk:Zakksez ‎
User talk:Haider
User talk:Double edge86
User talk:Ketabtoon
User talk:Afghana
User talk:Kamran4
User talk:Pahari Sahib

The Operators / Admns and Closing Edtior could now theirsevles understand that who is setling the scores and who is righteous. --TurnWorst (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - You probably aren't aware of these Gentlemen/Users. They are all members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Pashtun and so am I. Contrary to you they are all genuine and rational editors and I hope they step in and cast their opinion over here so as to show your absurdity. -- MARWAT  07:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I take into account he there are plenty of other grade 20 officers in Pakistan but not many get acknowledged by the DAWN newspaper (Pakistans leading English newspaper) bureau chief (Ismail Khan) for a province. The fact is he led several operations against militants at a time when many officers have been transferring themselves out of high profile jobs and leaving the province. His acknowledgement by the state deserves mention and gives him notability. The article does need a rewrite to prevent it appearing a puff piece and to make it more readable to those not familiar with the region but those are areas of improvement not grounds for deletion. Zak (talk)

Comment No body, who is voting Keep this article is replying the objections I have raised in favour of deletion of this article. The comments of the above two users are either against me or in personal favour of Safwat Ghayur, as they even know that many many officers are getting themselves out of province and on the other hand Safwat Ghayur, who was out of province for long -time since 2001 (the start of War Against Terror) till his death. You are lying to manipulate the deletion of this article, he was out of this province for 6 years out of 9 years of War Agains Terrorism. Many many officers martyred in War Against Terrorism, please create articles for thoe, wether Pakistani, Afghanistani, American, British and so so. Please abuse me, I will forgive you, curse me, I will forgive you, but atleast reply and answer, infact clear the objections raised by me in favour of this article's deletion. --TurnWorst (talk) 18:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You seem to be confusing the context of the article. It is the particular circumstances to his death and events prior to that ..which make the article notable. It could well benefit from a thorough edit, but the fact remains his death is notable. There are many other ex commandant FC's around but none of whom died while fighting the tehrik-e-taliban. All officers and people are not equal because context changes the event. If he had died of cancer or some illness he would not likely have deserved an article but he was murdered in the line of duty in unique circumstances. That makes him different. yoiu are right many others have died in similar circumstances but that is like saying Daniel Pearl was a journalist so his death wasn't notable. Or in a pakistani context can you name all the Supreme Court bar Association chiefs prior to Aitzaz Ahsan? unlikely, but despite being more a politician, Aitzaz is a notable character while most of the other SCBA Presidents are not..as such I shall continue to support the retaining of this article..with the caveat that it needs better editing & referencing Zak (talk)
Comment Yes, I can name all the presidents prior to Aitezaz Ahsan. They are Akram Sheikh, Hamid Khan, Malik Abdul Qayyum, Munir A Malik. What else? Please do not detrack or drag the dicsussion away to divert the attention of Closing Editor, just clear the objections. But once again no one is replying or clearing the objecions raised in favour of deletion of this article at the third paragraph (above). You must not manipulate the articles, clear the objections, please. --TurnWorst (talk) 20:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've always been one to walk into places I'm not supposed to be in... First, for those who want a link to the article in question it's Safwat Ghayur. Second, Wikipedia is not for memorials. However, there could be notability here. Third, would the combatants above please give up on personalities and get down to a Wikipedia rules based discussion of the article? The former presidents of wherever are irrelevant. So are the 57 predecessors of the subject here. Peridon (talk) 21:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@ Peridon - Exactly my point. The user TurnWorst is bringing in absolutely unnecessary things. Besides Safwat Ghayur was a hero and died as a hero and that's why the Provincial Government of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, one of the four provinces of Pakistan, announced an official one day mourning in memory of this gentleman [4]. This fact has been duly published in prestigious New York Times as well [5]. -- MARWAT  01:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
* Comment The provincial government of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa also announced another official one day moirning within past month after the myrtyrdom of Mian Rashid Hussein, the assasinated son of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa's Information Minister, Mian Iftikhar Hussein. So is Mian Rashid Hussein a notable too? Mr. -- MARWAT  who brought unnecessary things you or me? Who detracked the subject by personal attacks me or you? Closing Editor please note that none of he objections rasied, in the third paragraph of this page (above) are answered or cleared by any so far, rather -- MARWAT  have spoiled the discussion by taunts and personal attacks. --TurnWorst (talk) 13:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm calling on both of you to stop it now. I'm not saying who started it, who carried it on, or whose fault it is. You may not agree with each other, but try to behave in an appropriate manner by Wikipedia's standards. Please see WP:BLOCK. Will you please confine the discussion to matters relevant to the article, and in particular to the application of the relevant Wikipedia policies to the article? Virtually none of this lot so far will be considered by the closing admin as relevant to the topic in hand. I'm investigating the coverage of the subject at present, and will reach my own conclusion before long. Peridon (talk) 14:58, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentThough, I have been using Wikipedia around for quite sometime but when I came across this article and notification of discussion for deletion, I felt like making some point. In my point of view Mr. Sifwat Ghayyur is notable enough to have this page on Wikipedia and I have reasons of my such belief in the light of 'Notability Guidelines' provided by Wikipedia. I would like to put forward my points one by one:

Basic Criteria

  • After his death, Mr. Sifwat Ghayyur has been the subject of published secondary source material in mainstream media of Pakistan, Please have a look at the following links of News Items Published in his memory by leading Newspapers:

[6] [7] [8]

  • Here, it is worthy of mention that though, the depth of coverage might not appear substantial but multiple sources can be quoted since by being there in the Country, I have observed that almost all the main stream newspapers, periodicals and TV Channels gave hours of their precious airtime to the coverage of his death. In my view this satisfies, to an extent the Basic Criteria. I am sure, that in the days to come, when the History of War against Terrorism will be written out of news items, Mr. Ghayyur will stand one as an ideology and will be subject of Published Secondary Source of Material.

Additional Criteria

  • 1. Government of Pakistan has announced Sitara-i-Shujaat, in recognition of his services. Sitara-i-Shujaat is a Civil Award for Galantary[9].
  • 2. During his stay at National Police Academy as Course Commander for 25th and 26th Common Training Program, he contributed a great deal towards introduction of New Ideas of Policing in Context of Pakistan. Those, ideas are still in vogue in Police Service of Pakistan. The Officers and Ranks of Police Service of Pakistan, considers his style of Policing as something no less than an ideology. He is revered as an academician to all those who were his students at National Police Academy.
  • 3. Sifwat Ghayyur, is highly respected as a Professional for his unique style of Policing, many new fellows coming to service, tend to adopt his techniques.

Tail Piece

  • Further, The Fifth Pillar of Wikipedia Suggests Flexibility for its development, this page can stay there for all those who want to know about this man like myself.
  • Morever, I would like to add that, Mr. Ghayyur never claimed his prominence due to his strong family background, therefore, people commenting in his favour should avoid him being notable on such unimportant grounds.
  • Lastly, I would like to say that Mr. Ghayyur, in Pakistani Context, is someone, who will be remembered as a gentleman who is highly respected as a thorough professional who served Pakistan and International Community being a front runner in War Against Terror and laid his life in the line of duty. He might not be notable enough to have this page up running on wikipedia but his notability is more than this page and it will remain important, up and running, to all those who happened to see him in the Service of Mankind.

DFMPK (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Might I suggest that if notability BEFORE his death could be established better, there would be less problem. Peridon (talk) 21:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Listen Pal, with reference to your earlier warning to me and TurnWorst, I can only point it out to you to kindly check the nomination date of this article for deletion and the date on which the account of user TurnWorst was created. Supposedly this user has been blocked earlier on as well for using multiple socks and I can name a few over here such as LineofWisdom and Marwat786, while there were others as well. My major suspicion comes from their style of English and specifically nominating my articles. The current Geo Location once again zooms on the same person who is Identified as [redacted]. Having said that, let me say that I am in no way drifting from the issue at hand and have been repeatedly pointing at the notability of the person in question. Dude, I am a genuine editor of Wikipedia and the fact can be established from the history of my edits. This article was my creation and I have every right to defend it over here. -- MARWAT  01:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      Attention Editor Please check that DFMPK (talk) just created account to cast his vote in favour, as -- MARWAT  has invited and aksed many Users earlier to cast their votes by leaving messages on their talk page. The aforementione user, for sure have created new ID to vote in favour of this article. I am not sure but what I have understood by going through some pages recently, that -- MARWAT  is strictly warned for posting (a assumed so far) my name and address. Whatever, but his recent acts shows that his efforts are to humiliate or disgrace me personally as I have challenged the notability of his article. WHy isn't he responding to objection I have raised? Doesn't his non-responding of objections proves that he himself is sure about the non-otability of the article? The article be deleted as he is failed to prove notability before the martyrdom of Safwat Ghayur --TurnWorst (talk) 12:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep. I don't know if this is a good-faith nomination or not, and frankly, I have no stomach to read through the tripe posted above by the two main parties in what seems to be a pissing contest. What I do know is that while the article may be in terrible shape, there are sources to establish the subject's notability. His death was notable enough to be noted in The New York Times, in Dawn, and in other sources. Alive, he was relevant as well--ABC News called him the "Wyatt Earp" of Pakistan, and throughout 2009 he was quoted often enough. Let's close this and put a stop to this ugly, ugly AfD, that I got involved with involuntarily. Drmies (talk) 14:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - per Drmies, notability is pretty clearly established prior to subject's death, and additional posthumous coverage by multiple independent organizations, news sources, and government agencies confirms it. Doc Tropics 15:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Long time no see, Doc. Learn Dutch yet? ;) Drmies (talk) 15:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wat zou het punt zijn? Zou het voor de grote Nederlandse literatuur, of het fijne voedsel zijn? No, really I just enjoy stalking you....Doc Tropics 15:55, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There seems to be plenty of reliable coverage. I've no objection to a Speedy Keep, but possibly it should run its course to avoid suspicions of bias. Peridon (talk) 20:55, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I work for a news producer in North America. Safwat Ghayur's name just came up in an interview with a scholar studying Pashtuns, who grew up in Peshawar: "We as children … remember his [SG's] stories." I probably had sufficient info to verify the name from the "Frontier Constabulary" article, but I always appreciate having more info than I need. So the article was helpful in my case, which suggests that it may be (or has been) helpful to other news organizations as well. Adelphious (talk) 03:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep looking just at the article, there seem to be sufficient sources for notability DGG ( talk ) 04:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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