Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ross Cullum

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ross Cullum[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non-notable musician, sources are only IMDb and music database, with third being primary. Record label is also non-notable, searches bring up a fictional namesake and Discogs profiles etc. Karnataka (talk) 22:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Bands and musicians, and England. Karnataka (talk) 22:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This artist is credited as a producer among other creative credits on several notable albums including some Tears for Fears and Enya albums. Beyond just trivial db entries/lists, we actually have short-but-nontrivial coverage across many sources [1][2][3][4][5][6][7], etc. Seems to cross the threshold of WP:BASIC, may also meet WP:MUSICBIO or WP:PRODUCER. (With a reminder that BASIC says If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability (with a long note explaining what types of trivial coverage are not included) (addendum, I've now evaluatd PRODUCER below as well, see my commment) —siro χ o 23:05, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From the list of sources provided by this user, I cannot read two that are from Canadian newspapers due to database access. For all the others, every single one is about someone else's concerts or albums, with Mr. Cullum only being listed very briefly as producer or for other session work. That does not qualify for significant coverage, in which the subject needs to not only appear in a reliable source, but there must also be encyclopedic information that can verify facts in an independent article. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 19:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reply. Let me describe my thought process on this subject, I hope this is helpful, I do not mean to be confrontational in any way. Per WP:SIGCOV "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material. As this is a biography, examples of trivial mentions given in WP:BASIC include simple directory entry or a mention in passing ("John Smith at Big Company said..." or "Mary Jones was hired by My University") ... a birth certificate or a 1-line listing on an election ballot form is not. paraphrased by me of course.

Again note that, excluding trivial mentions, If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability

Now each of these seven sources provides something short that meets SIGCOV, being not trivial.

The Paul McCartney source describes the success with Tears for Fear, high tech production, lush sound, and being more synth-sounding than McCartney wanted. All of this is tied directly to the subject's work and goes beyond a passing mention of the example above (like being hired)
The Enya source is similar, describing the subject's work directly and in detail.
Then we have a variety of short coverage that go beyond just "being hired",
- We have reviews of recordings that discuss the sound in depth. Keep in mind that recording production is a creative endeavor. To discuss the sound of the album and name the producer is to review the producers work.
  - Eg. an ethereal and juiced-up orchestral concept album built around Brennan's soaring voice and crystalline harp work..... It was produced by Ross Cullum (Tori Amos, Tears For Fears, Enya) and Chris Hughes[8]
- We have discussions of the artists' career and perception amongst peers and industry
  - eg. for example, Blake opted out of recording his album with hip label stablemate Howie B after just a few days, choosing producer Ross Cullum (who has worked with Enya) instead. The album was recorded at Cullum's studio The River in London[9]
  - eg. ...they were quickly signed by Universal Classics and Jazz who enlisted Ross Cullum, the man who worked with Enya, to produce their first album,[10]
  - eg. The creation of the "classical crossover" album Journey On followed a chance meeting with Zarecki, who convinced Hawkins to fly to his homeland to record the instrumental component of the album with Polish musicians, then travel on to London to record her vocals under the direction of another producer, Ross Cullum.[11]

We don't need any original research to extract content from any of those sources. And there are indeed more similar sources we can pull from, I stopped looking when I felt I had enough to demonstrate that I could write a start class article about this subject. We can attribute where necessary to keep WP:VOICE, and the variety of sources can help avoid WP:UNDUE weight.

—siro χ o 22:21, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

●Keep - Found Quite a few references

the-paulmccartney-project

tunefind PaulGamerBoy360 (talk) 04:28, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Those aren't references, they're a list of stuff found in a basic Google search. See Wikipedia's requirements for reliable sources. The only thing in that list that can be considered reliable is AllMusic, but all they have is a list of credits in which this man's name appears briefly. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 19:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete fail to prove WP:NM and per Karnataka ÀvîRâm7^(talk) 17:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - The "Keep" voters above are trying diligently and probably in good faith, but Wikipedia's rules make it tough for producers who are only listed in the credits for other people's works. That is all that can be found in any of the sources currently used in the article or proposed in this debate above. I have no doubt that Mr. Cullum has worked with many important musicians, but he has simply received no media coverage in which someone highlighted his works and career in their own right. And that's what we need for an encyclopedic article with verifiable facts for the reader's benefit. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 19:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Given the disagreement above, I've now also evaluated WP:PRODUCER. This individual very clearly meets WP:PRODUCER.3, playing a major role in co-creating many albums and songs:

The Hurting - [12]
Points on the Curve - [13]
Prince Charming - [14]
Watermark - [15]
Evening Falls... (single) - [16]
Orinoco Flow (single) - [17]
Under the Pink - [18]
Dance Hall Days (single) - [19]
Bajo el signo de Caín - [20]
In the Running - [21]
And several other albums and songs...

—siro χ o 19:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:44, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Since he was active in the mid-80s/90s, I was convinced that I could find significant offline coverage. I was wrong -- I searched ProQuest, Newsbank, and Newspapers.com and didn't come up with much beyond what is already mentioned.

There are two very positive sentences in the LA Times about his work with Emma Townshend: (Nichols, N. (1998, Mar 22). Pop music; album review; Emma Townshend "winterland" EastWest, home edition, Los Angeles Times) and a snarky paragraph in the Washington Post about his work with Moya Brennan. (Moya Brennan, Two Horizons" [final edition]. (2004, Feb 27). The Washington Post). There's also this, from in a story about Tears for Fears in the Sun-Sentinel: "They kept producer Chris Hughes from The Hurting, but elected not to use engineer Ross Collum (sic), whose meticulousness finally caused a split between him and Hughes while working on an album by the group Wang Chung." (De Atley, R. (1985, Sep 20).No tears, no fears for British (Sun-Sentinal edition).

There's a lengthy interview here: [22] It isn't a valid source, but there is a lot of information if anyone is up for doing a more targeted search. Commenting rather than weighing in; I'm in between weak keep and weak delete. His work is influential (based on his credits), but "influential" is subjective, and there is a distinct paucity of coverage. JSFarman (talk) 02:23, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not all newspapers are listed online, so there could still possibly be offline news coverage. PaulGamerBoy360 (talk) 18:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:29, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.