Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roman Mashkov

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Roman Mashkov[edit]

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I came across this article when looking for an article to copyedit but after doing a bit of work am concerned that it does not meet the notability requirements. In particular, there seem to be no reliable sources about this man. Two of the sources given are deadlinks (and judging by the webdomains, were never reliable sources by WP standards) and the third appears to be an unreliable, user contributed source [1]. I have made other searches and have not been able to find reliable sources which could support the info included in this bio. Slp1 (talk) 03:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have now possibly found one of the deadlinks sources elsewhere [2]. It seems to be excerpts from the memoirs of Georgy Zhukov, but assuming it is accurate or reliable (which is very uncertain, as far as I can see), does not even mention the subject of the article. Slp1 (talk) 03:25, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Slp1 (talk) 03:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Is it right to have articles for platoon leaders even as he's a Hero of the Soviet Union?. BlueD954 (talk) 03:28, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I believe our strong precedent is to keep articles on holders of the highest award for military valour, even if they're private soldiers. Johnson Beharry, when winning the VC in 2004, was a private; Bryan Budd was a corporal and section commander when he won the VC posthumously in 2006. Neither article has been nominated for deletion. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:31, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete while Hero of the Soviet Union meets #1 of WP:SOLDIER, that is an Essay, not a guideline, more than 12,000 were awarded and he lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS to meet WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 03:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 06:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Significant coverage in RS is present in the sources that have been added to the article, and Mashkov is unquestionably notable under WP:SOLDIER as a top-level award recipient under longstanding consensus in addition to meeting WP:GNG due to coverage in multiple secondary sources. Given that most Russian newspapers and books are not digitized, it is certain that more coverage of him exists than what can easily be found in digitized publications. While the title Hero of the Soviet Union was more frequently awarded in World War II than comparable awards such as the Medal of Honor, at most less than a thousandth of the millions of men in the Soviet Armed Forces during the war received the award. As to arguments about the lack of notability of small unit commanders, we have numerous examples of highly notable privates and junior non-commissioned officers. Kges1901 (talk) 13:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finding those two sources. I found an online version of the Kuznetsov book and it has a fairly detailed bio in it, as you know. [3], which is excellent. Can you help with the Shkadov book? Is there an online version available where we can see the extent of the coverage he receives? Of course, there is also the question of how reliable sources written in the Soviet era really are (see Historiography in the Soviet Union,[4]). --Slp1 (talk) 16:58, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have been working off what I have been able to find online, and the Shkadov Heroes of the Soviet Union biographical dictionary is available online with a google title search. Again these are not the only examples of coverage and it is highly likely based on what I have found researching other Hero of the Soviet Union biographies that he is covered in a unit history of the 5th Tank Corps, but that is not available online. As for the reliability of Soviet sources, it is impossible to write anything about Soviet military history without using Soviet sources and they are used by highly RS Eastern Front historians such as David Glantz and David Stahel. On the general issue of Soviet reliability, see Stahel, Kiev 1941, pp. 5-6: on strictly military matters they were frequently closer to the mark than contemporary western accounts.. Kges1901 (talk) 13:50, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did some googling with the title but haven't been able to get much further. I understand that it is impossible to write about military topics without Soviet sources, and that they may indeed be reliable on the facts. But this is a question is whether someone who is only mentioned in Soviet sources of a particular era (and in fact is only one among 1000s and 1000s given a similar hero treatment in those sources) is really notable enough to have an article on WP). --Slp1 (talk) 01:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The copy I use for Shkadov, Mashkov's entry is in volume 2. The fact is that Mashkov is mentioned in modern Russian sources because of his Hero status - HSUs are still considered national heroes in Russia due to the Great Patriotic War narrative. In the case of Mashkov, we have examples such as [5], [6], and [7] Kges1901 (talk) 13:55, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Clearly passes WP:SOLDIER #1. These nominations are getting ever more ridiculous. Editors who never vote to keep anything continually saying that a long-accepted guideline is just an essay is getting boring. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SOLDIER is an essay not a guideline you should stop mischaracterising it. Mztourist (talk) 03:40, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete we lack significant coverage to justify the article. We need to rethink how we define soldier notability, in a few cases we have defined it in unsustainably broad ways.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:04, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above and clearly passes WP:SOLDIER #1. VocalIndia (talk) 16:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Note that WP:SOLDIER is in fact an essay and not a community-accepted inclusion guideline. Other arguments would be needed to keep this article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep. He is a highest Soviet Honor award recipient, Hero of the Soviet Union, plus two other high honor awards, one of which is the next highest after the hero of USSR. This is like a Medal of Honor equivalent or so. Understand the Soviet Union was a bit more liberal in given the hero's awards than the U.S. (11K v ~500), still deleting this decorated Red Army officer will be a sign of bias against non-English WWII soldiers. Please consider keeping teh article. Kolma8 (talk) 19:52, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pages for recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, the highest award of Nazi Germany, get deleted so the same standard should apply here. Mztourist (talk) 08:27, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is not comparable because the Knight's Cross was a multi-level award and the highest level of it is still considered notable. Hero of the Soviet Union, Medal of Honor, and Victoria Cross are all awards with only one level, so that Knight's Cross AfD's do not apply here. Additionally, many of them have been restored with enough material to be considered notable.Kges1901 (talk) 12:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it not comparable? What levels of it qualify then? Only the Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds of which only one was awarded or the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds of which only 27 were awarded? Only 7000 Knights Cross were awarded in total, fewer than the 12,777 Hero of the Soviet Unions. Mztourist (talk) 17:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about number awarded. It's simply the fact that the Knight's Cross was often awarded for a significantly lower level of gallantry than was required for other "top" awards. The basic level of the Knight's Cross was effectively a second-level decoration comparable to, say, the British Distinguished Conduct Medal or Distinguished Service Order or the US Distinguished Service Cross or Navy Cross. The lower awards (Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class) were so ubiquitous as to probably not even count as third-level awards (and were distributed much like the US Bronze Star or the UK Mention in Dispatches). The Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves or above should be regarded as a first-level award, however. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:51, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep winner of highest award for military valour (which WP:SOLDIER also includes as criteria 1). Otherwise we need to start nominating VC winners for deletion. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't put the idea in their heads! -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep: I added reliable sources within the External Links section: sources are from the Russian museums and encyclopedia.Partizan Kuzya (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Highest award for military valour is a clear indicator of notability. Habiliment (talk) 11:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Good improvements have been made since nomination. I have no issue with notability. This is what I would want to see in an encyclopedia article on the subject.--Concertmusic (talk) 15:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Missvain the previous result is clearly kept with 'Strong Keep', why do you relisted again and again? What is AfD for? VocalIndia (talk) 15:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

AFD closures are really useless and shameless. Do not waste time unnecessarily disgusting guys. Is AfD something to wait for until we get more delete votes? VocalIndia (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have participated in many AfD discussions, but I do not really understand the procedure of AfD closures. Please point to me! VocalIndia (talk) 17:12, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.