Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reiko Nagase

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The delete argument is based on the quantity and quality of the RS available. Whilst there aren't many sources that are solely about her, the number and quality of those in the Reception section show that there is quite a lot of commentary and using her as an example to make one point or another, beyond that of just look at the pretty girl. The GNG clearly states 'Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it need not be the main topic of the source material', which I would certainly argue that the Newman source at least meets. Then there’s the vast amount of Japanese coverage which isn’t linked in the article but has been mentioned in the AfD. Ged UK 12:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reiko Nagase[edit]

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This character is not the subject of in-depth (significant) coverage across reliable, independent sources. (?) Its only sources in video game reliable sources custom Google search do not have out-of-fictional-universe discussion, and almost all of the "Reception" coverage is about series games (wherein the character's mention is passing or incidental). The character is primarily known within—and not apart from—the series, so a redirect to the series article would suffice. If someone finds more (non-English and offline) sources, please {{ping}} me. czar 14:59, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It is the subject of in-depth (significant) coverage across reliable, independent sources. Especially since the subject is only a series/company virtual idol mascot character whose sole spoken-line equivalent is a hidden message in 1 game. Including http://www.1up.com/features/all-about-reiko in 2006. She's also apart from the series from her many guest appearance after her enormous popularity made her a Namco mascot in general. And I don't even know what would make "out-of-fictional-universe discussion" of a voiceless mascot would be if press reports of her huge popularity and the fans' big outrage for briefly removing her are not enough - a Tropes vs Women video about how Reiko makes Russians beat their wives? In fact everything there is "out-of-fictional-universe discussion" as Reiko's role in the fictional universe of Ridge Racer is just being there (there's no plot). She's a virtual equivalent of a celebrity model, with the popularity that no real race queen (here are hundreds of their biographies in Japanese Wikipedia: [1]) has ever even come anywhere close to. --AggressiveNavel (talk) 08:23, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We don't keep articles on characters just because they exist, but on their degree of secondary source coverage (discussing the character as its own subject, in the vein of the 1UP piece, not an aggregation of every time she was mentioned in a review of a game). It doesn't matter how few lines she has spoken as long as critics treat her as important apart from the series. czar 12:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

She's never spoken any line. Everything in her reception is "out-of-fictional-universe discussion", her being a virtual mascot of the plot-less Ridge Racer games and of Namco, and not even a 'real' character for any sort of "in- fictional-universe discussion". Her most important value actually isn't even how "critics treat her" (and they treat her well, like proper gentlemen, praising her looks, with her looks being all she's ever had, except some stated statistics and traits that are prominently listed in her Japanese Wikipedia article: [2] yet here would be "trivia") but rather how popular she has become and then how enduring her popularity has remained for years since the early-mid 1990s (as noted by 1UP: she's been one of the first real-hit female game characters, years before Lara Croft, which is actually historical importance and I'm saying this seriously) . See any mascot articles in Wikipedia, they're here in their hundreds, especially the sports team mascots but also many advertising characters and so forth. Now nominate for redirection to their teams all of the lets say popular sports mascots, except only these that just recently became subjects of heated Indian-mascot controversies and the resulting race-bait clickbait. Or let's do it with all the human models well known for just their modeling, on the grounds that while they can be successful and enduringly popular, and have a cultural icon status of appearing in many works or being spokesmodel for things, and journalists did praise them by name or otherwise comment on them too, and reliable sources reported on them aplenty so all the facts of their articles can be positively verified, but that's still not enough for you so they're now going to be redirected to "modeling". Because this approach is that absurd. Or just maybe simplystop making these frivolous redirects/nominations. I'll write you because I'm so tired of it already. I don't want to do this any more. --AggressiveNavel (talk) 17:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. czar 18:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. czar 18:48, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The 1up.com source is good, its a reliable source per WP:VG/S, and the article is centrally focused around her and covers her in significant detail. Are there anymore sources out there like this one? If so, I'd go "keep". If not, then I'd redirect to ~~some Virtual Fighter game or character list type location~~ the Ridge Racer (series) article. The rest of the Reception section, as of writing this, is largely unimportant passing mentions about her, some of it not even really reception as much as just passing observations about her. Sergecross73 msg me 19:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

" Virtual Fighter game" was it even a joke? Or do you really have no slightest idea what you talk about? --AggressiveNavel (talk) 20:54, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, got my AFD's mixed up, was still thinking about Sarah Bryant (Virtua Fighter). Fixed. Thank you. So anyways, any more sources with significant coverage? Or just listicles declaring her the "hawtest babe" like in the current reception section? Sergecross73 msg me 22:48, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You ignore almost everything I wrote and speak in so disparaging way . There is already significant coverage which is why everything is or can be sourced. Many journalists praised her as an excellent virtual idol, and I don't care if you think it's considered "listicles". Unless I missed something I don't think the article even contains links to any such rankings at all, but that's not even important. Not even because nothing wrong with rankings, or reviews, or anything. What is most important by far is the tremendous success of her as a series mascot and advertising character, which as all she ever was, as she's became far more popular than Namco even planned for her, beloved by fans so much they couldn't even retire her. This made her go to more than a dozen games, turned her into a company mascot in general, and even gave her a sister for another series. I'll tell you this, I'm sincerily shocked I had to explain this, but maybe it's not clear from the article. And I also wonder what else would you even except. It's all actually depressing. Makes me terrified for the articles I wrote and makes me not even bother to try and create any more, or to improve anything. --AggressiveNavel (talk) 00:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't respond to you point by point because your responses are full of these overdramatic ramblings that have very little to do with if there are enough sources to meet the GNG. Sources and policies are what sway people in these discussions, not all that other stuff you tend to throw in there. Sergecross73 msg me 01:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So what exactly sources were what you called "just listicles declaring her the "hawtest babe" like in the current reception section" after you realised it's not even the article you originally thought it is? Another question, what would be possibly any wrong with such sources, if they existed, especially in case of a virtual idol consisting only of visuals? --AggressiveNavel (talk) 02:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not entirely sure why you're asking me to identify content easily found in the current Reception section, but sure:

This IGN source features a whopping 2 sentences about her, more or less just calling her "sexy".
Here's another IGN source that, while not a list, still consists of only 2 sentences in the body, that more or less just declare her "true Ridge Racer babe" and say "click on the link to see a calendar of her".
Also, when I stated that some of the Reception section "isn't really Reception but just random observations", I was referring to these comments you've re-added. The fact that people don't know her name/identity isn't reception, it's just a pointless observation, likely an attempt to artificially pad the section with content... Sergecross73 msg me 02:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect - to Ridge Racer, the video game series the subject originates from. See comments above. The more I dig into the sources, the more I see there's not significant coverage about her, just a ton of passing mentions of people finding her attractive. Sergecross73 msg me 03:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. I'll contend here that Reiko is a notable character who clearly meets the GNG. While it's true that some of the sources are passing mentions, others aren't; Australian Station's quote "Reiko's wholesome sexiness and huge popularity, it's undeniable that she's a symbol identified with the original PlayStation" is in particular pretty strong coverage. Here's another great source: James Newman in his critical book Videogames writes that "the Ridge Racer series' 'Reiko Nagase' is a case in point [...] serving no purpose other than to appear in box art and wave the chequered flag at the start of the race, Reiko is the epitome of outmoded and unwelcome stereotyping" while discussing gender representation in video games. A Japanese language Google search also reveals tons of potential coverage. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 09:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I almost faith in Wikipedia. About Newman's opinion it seems he's not aware but it's not a stereotype but actually a real job, and Japanese Wikipedia even has hundreds of race queen articles because they're celebrities there, with careers and fandoms. http://www.axiommagazine.jp/2013/05/07/professional-japanese-race-queens/ is a sample article about it. And yes of course she's by far most popular in Japan. Also because of the place race queens and idol models in general hold in their apparently "outmoded and unwelcome" culture. --AggressiveNavel (talk) 10:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Per Satellizer's input and the 1UP source, which devotes a whole article for her. Kokoro20 (talk) 12:39, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One article and a slew of passing mentions does not justify a dedicated WP page by any measure of the GNG. If anything it means that she's worth mentioning in the series article. czar 23:00, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't exactly call these sources that Satellizer brought up "passing mentions". Kokoro20 (talk) 01:43, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

When a character is named incidentally to a point, without any extra context to assert their significance apart from being an example, the result is the definition of a passing mention. czar 18:44, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not like these sources only talk about her for one short sentence without anymore substance. It looks like we're not in agreement here. Kokoro20 (talk) 00:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect for Czar and Sergecross73. Rainbow unicorn (talk) 03:41, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect per arguments from Czar and Sergecross73. 86.44.79.61 (talk) 14:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

— 86.44.79.61 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 05:01, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention, he/she also voted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frank Tenpenny, another video game character article that was recently at AFD. Kokoro20 (talk) 09:32, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

IPs are people too. Their contribs are very clearly not limited to this article or even fictional characters, so this is an inappropriate use of the SPA tag. It's only supposed to be used when it would be uncontroversial. czar 12:59, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, but it just kind of gives me a little suspicion that an IP with very little edits would just suddenly vote at two video game character AFDs. Kokoro20 (talk) 13:18, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I agree, its kind of suspicious when anyone with few edits jump on to AFD...but I agree that the SPA tag doesn't really make sense here, their edits, while few, are kind of all over the place, some not even in the realm of video games (or AFD). I don't believe a "single purpose" could actually be defined here. Sergecross73 msg me 13:20, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I originally tagged the comment to alert the closing admin that the IP's !vote should be treated with caution as they have made very little other edits and sockpuppetry may be afoot. It's definitely not common for someone to directly vote on two AfDs on only their seventh edit, not to mention citing Wikipedia policy and tagging an image template on only their fifth. Adding to the fact that this is only one of those "per [some other editor]" comments that does not forward their own arguments for redirecting, this comment should not be given much weight. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 22:25, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone is getting any ideas that this might be me(I participated in all of the two AfDs he/she did, and we had similar comments), note that the IP traces to Ireland and if you analyse my edits you will find that the times don't correspond to those typical of people who live in that time zone, since I don't live there. Rainbow unicorn (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Considering the amount of references cited (a lot more than on the actual Ridge Racer article), her fame as a character & promotional tool (which almost transcends Ridge Racer itself) and lengthy history & amount of appearances (outside of Ridge Racer itself even), I would consider the character to be notable enough for a separate article. I don't see it as adding any value to integrate it into the Ridge Racer article. Sarochi (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You...really can't see value in adding content about the subject's mascot in the subject's article, but you can see the value of the mascot having its own article? I don't follow... Sergecross73 msg me 12:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think if anything someone should take care of the Ridge Racer article before we even get to deciding whether or not this one should be included and redirected to it. It can't be that the Ridge Racer article is lacking in content because it doesn't have all the details on a mainly promotional character. Redirecting now means either losing a lot or turning the Ridge Racer article into mainly being about Reiko Nagase. Sarochi (talk) 13:34, 15 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.