Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raymond Mitchell

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Mitchell[edit]

Raymond Mitchell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Tagged for notability since May 2013. He fails WP:SOLDIER and I don't believe he meets WP:BASIC or WP:ANYBIO Gbawden (talk) 11:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Sources are written by the subject of the article. Polequant (talk) 11:55, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Toffanin (talk) 19:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Toffanin (talk) 19:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Toffanin (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I have a vested interest as author of the page and son of the subject. Sorry for not improving the references sooner. At the time of the first suggestion of deletion I was quite ill hence not improving the references. Perhaps describing him as military historian and biographical author might have been more accurate.

I have researched references from the Imperial War Museum who hold his diaries and for whom he recorded two recorded interviews which are held and cataloged by them as part of their oral history, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41_Commando - he wrote the only history of 41 Royal Marine Commando and drew heavily on the Commando's war diaries and the testimonies of other marines, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despatch_rider - he is only one of two dispatch riders to have written memoirs and the only one from WW2, some references include: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] I hope this helps, but understand if you would prefer to delete. Now I am well, I am happy to review the page and add much stronger references. But understand if you would rather not have such information in your encyclopedia. Warmest, Jonathan Mitchell JazzyJ DT (talk) 21:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Additional reference material:

3 Quotes regarding Ray Mitchell's work by pertinent military figures: Major General Julian Thomson CB OBE describes the value of such diarised accounts: ‘Ray Mitchell kept a diary, which, for security reason, was forbidden. This, now lodged in the Imperial War Museum. As an author who has spent much time in the archives of the Imperial War Museum, I can vouch for the value of books based on diaries written at the time. Ray Mitchell’s book is all the more valuable as a testimony to one Royal Marine’s experiences because he can refer to his diaries as a back-up to his recall of events. [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Thompson_(Royal_Marines_officer)

As a member of the Royal Marines Historical Society Ray published his first non-biographical history of the 41 Commando Royal Marines (1942-46) in which Lord Paddy Ashdown GCMG, CH, KBE, PC describes how: ‘I met Ray on a visit to Newcastle I was fascinated to hear of his book. As an ex-Company Commander (Echo Company) of 41 Commando Royal Marines… This book also conveys with fondness the camaraderie of life… training and fighting together, …not least of the bravery and dedication of the men I was privileged to command. This book bears ample testimony to the fact that those men of the 41 Commando Royal Marines – have in their turn become part of that same history.’ [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Ashdown

Colonel J. F. Parsons OBE, MC (Troop Commander at Salerno, Commanding Officer Infantry Training Royal Marines (1967-1969) and ‘Aide de camp’ to Her Majesty the Queen) describes how ‘Raymond Mitchell has written a very good account of a proud chapter in the history of the Royal Marines‘ [9]

As a member of the Royal Marines Historical Society Ray published his first history book.

Sources include: A day-by-day account of the operation in Salerno (accessed from the Royal Marine Museum) prepared by Capt George Burton (Unit Adjutant and Intelligence Officer) in close contact with Maj Baker-Cresswell.

The accounts were read, passing helpful comments and additional information to underline its overall accuracy by four officers:

Capt ‘Jock’ Sharpe (Y Troop) Capt John Stewart OBE (A Troop) Capt Jim Williams (Signals Officer) Capt Jack Sultzberger (X Troop) providing a scrapbook of photographs, printed articles, press cuttings and purely ‘41’ documents including actual signals from the Salerno action.

Publications referenced: [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Illustrated

Also ‘Salerno, A military Fiasco’ by Eric Morris [11]

However Ray elucidates that: ‘such works however, and I have read a number of others, have to be used with caution. Built up, as they generally are, from unsubstantiated personal recollections, a ‘statements of fact’ must be verified from other dependable sources before being used.’ [12]

Personal accounts from Commandos: ‘Rattler’ Morgan, ‘Willy’ Wilderspin, Geoff ‘Bogey’ Knight, George ‘Jock’ Brown, Cyril Barlow, Les Stokell, ‘Cliff’ Clifford, ‘Frankie-boy’ Nightingale, Eric Currie, Dick Harman, ‘Jan’ Maley, Harry Weiss, Charlie Wyatt, Tom Gratton, Jack Mason, Vic Roots, Les Rumball, George Simpson. Jim Fulton insights into the Heavy Weapons Section their and machineguns. Bill ‘Jock’ More insights into ammunition and reinforcements. Bill ‘Jock’ Hurley including his tape for Royal Marines Museum of D-Day experiences.

Imperial War Museum contributions: Dr John R Bullen – Exhibits and firearms Colin J Bruce – Printed books Simon Robbins - Documents David Parry – Photograph Archive Paul Kemp – Photograph Archive Publication committee http://www.iwm.org.uk/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_War_Museum

Royal Marines Historical Society contributions: Maj VM Bentick, Corps Historical Records Officer http://www.royalmarinesmuseum.co.uk/

For his two biographical works the diaries used were Ray’s own diaries which he describes as: ‘A motley collection of six notebooks/diaries in which entries had been made, albeit rather spasmodically, over the years. [From being] a founder member of the Commando at Llanion barracks in October 1942 and was one of the very fortunate few to be still around and still with the Unit, when it was finally disbanded in January 1946.’ [13] Jonathan Mitchell JazzyJ DT (talk) 11:32, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Wood, C (1992) Mitchell, Raymond (IWM interview) catalogue number 12741. Imperial War Museum, London. Retrieved Sept 13th, 2015 from http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80012473.
  2. ^ Wood, C (1992) Mitchell, Raymond (IWM interview) catalogue number 12937. Imperial War Museum, London. Retrieved Sept 13th, 2015 from http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80012666.
  3. ^ Conrad Wood, “Ten Years of the Department of Sound Records of the Imperial War Museum” Oral History 11:1 (1983), 12
  4. ^ IWM (2015). Commando despatch rider with 41 Royal Marines Commando in North-West Europe 1944-1945. Imperial War Museum, London. Retrieved Sept 13th, 2015 from http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/publication/36208.
  5. ^ IWM (2015). Marine Commando Sicily and Salerno, 1943 with 41 Royal Marines Commando. Imperial War Museum, London. Retrieved Sept 13th, 2015 from http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/publication/30425.
  6. ^ IWM (2015). They did what was asked of them 41 (Royal Marines) Commando, 1942-1946. Imperial War Museum, London. Retrieved Sept 13th, 2015 from http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/publication/25295.
  7. ^ (Thomson, 2001, cited in Mitchell, 2001, p.ix)’
  8. ^ (Ashdown, 1996, cited in Mitchell, 1996, p.8)
  9. ^ (Parsons, 1988, cited in Mitchell, 1988, p.10)
  10. ^ The War Illustrated Edited by Sir John Hammerton
  11. ^ Morris, E (1983). Salerno: A Military Fiasco. Stein & Day Pub: USA.
  12. ^ (Mitchell, 2001, p.11)
  13. ^ (Mitchell, 2001, p.9)
Please note that you can only express a keep or delete opinion once. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. No obvious notability whatsoever, neither as a servicemen nor as a writer. Worthy I'm sure, but no more notable than any of the millions of other men who served and the many thousands who wrote books about it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  19:49, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - unfortunately as far as I can see there really doesn't seem to be "significant" coverage of the subject that is independent of him, per WP:GNG. What does exist appears to either be passing mentions or refers more to his books than him. Anotherclown (talk) 07:24, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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