Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raul Cătinaș (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. @.karellian-24: please read WP:BLUDGEON -- RoySmith (talk) 21:42, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Raul Cătinaș

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Raul Cătinaș (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Was deleted through AfD back in 2014. A G4 speedy was declined "as the current article is not "sufficiently identical" to the deleted one." Not having access to the deleted article, this had to be looked at by an admin. However, there is nothing new since 2014 to indicate an increase in notability. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Boxing-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Onel5969: if you check the current article history, you'll see that I refunded the version that had been deleted. That version is visible to all editors, so anyone can see the differences between then and now. --RexxS (talk) 16:50, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks RexxS - I missed that in the history. If I had seen that I would have bypassed the G4, and come directly here, since my AfD rationale still stands... nothing that different between then and now, except for his attempted comeback, which imho does not really add enough notability. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 17:06, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Onel5969: @RexxS: - The page was refunded by an administrator because this kickboxer is considered notable. He is a 2-time K-1 WGP Final 16 finalist. Please SEE THIS, Cătinaș was the only fighter on the card without a Wikipedia page until creation. He has also fought at the K-1 World Grand Prix 2012 in Tokyo Final 16. K-1 was an organisation that reunited the best heavyweights in the world. We had no rankings, but we can assume he could have been around the 10th rank so it should pass the rule "been ranked in the world top 10 by an independent publication". Liverkick ceased to exist, and Combat Press (Kickboxing) was created only some years ago. Kickboxing is covered less by media than is the UFC in the USA. I suggest some wisdom and indulgence, please. Thom Harinck, longest coach in the world and one of the best in the history of the sport, names him the "White Tyson" and "perhaps the hardest white hitter in heavyweight history". So being not just fighting in 2 K-1 finals, but also being considered an incredibly heavy hitter by Harinck could be notable.--.karellian-24 (talk) 18:28, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 02:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Delete He wasn't notable in 2014 and he's done nothing since then to show WP notability. He doesn't meet any of the kickboxer notability criteria at WP:NKICK and I'm not seeing the significant independent coverage required to meet WP:GNG. I found interviews and routine sports coverage, but that's not enough. I did correct the article's mistaken claims that he was a two-time K-1 Grand Prix Finalist because he never actually qualified for the 8 man finals. Papaursa (talk) 03:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Yeah, so? He could have been easily top 10 at that point if we would have had rankings. He was a Final 16 finalist. Twice. To be a Final 16 finalist in K-1, it's huge. Some had to win qualifying tournaments plus a grand tournament in order to enter the Seoul final (Final 16). Seoul Final 16 was known as the 2nd gigantic K-1 event after the K-1 Final (Final 8) in Tokyo. Seoul is linked to the finals, being called Final 16. It should be a gesture of goodwill, since he was in top 16 twice when had no rankings. He could have been easily a top 10, passing the rules. Plus the administrator refunded this. .karellian-24 (talk) 16:33, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Please review your opinion, Papa! **Thom Harinck is arguably a legend coach and the longest coach ever in kickboxing, inventing this sport in Netherlands. HOW IS THAT NOT NOTABLE? That Cătinaș is a phenomenon, being known in the kickboxing world as the White Tyson.

Thom Harinck describing Cătinaș as "perhaps the hardest white hitter in heavyweight history" Sport.ro (Pro X) https://www.sport.ro/local-kombat/reactia-lui-mike-tyson-cand-a-vazut-ca-raul-catinas-are-tatuaj-cu-el-ce-a-facut-fostul-campion-de-box.html

Legendary Daniel Ghita telling "all the children want to be like Daniel Ghita and Raul Catinas" https://www.siamfightmag.com/en/others-styles-en/interviews-other-styles-en/kick-boxing-en/404-daniel-ghita-rumania

Bloody Elbow calling the win of Mighty Mo over Cătinaș in 2010 Final 16 as MOST SIGNIFICANT before the final and his quarter-final bout against Peter Aerts. https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/12/9/1865563/k-1-world-grand-prix-2010-preview-alistair-overeem-semmy-schilt-on

"White Tyson" aka Raul Cătinaș meets real Mike Tyson https://www.sport.ro/local-kombat/reactia-lui-mike-tyson-cand-a-vazut-ca-raul-catinas-are-tatuaj-cu-el-ce-a-facut-fostul-campion-de-box.html also covered by Evenimentul Zilei https://evz.ro/reactia-lui-mike-tyson-cand-a-vazut-ca-raul-catinas-are-tatuaj-cu.html

Largest combat sports site in the Netherlands interviewing him http://www.mixfight.nl/forum/showthread.php?92907-Interview-Raul-Catinas-(K1-Europe-GP-won-van-Leko)&s=4bfe8acd55d78b374ac54188388f4096

Fight Star Asia talks with STAR Raul Catinas https://fightsportasia.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/fsa-talks-w-superkombat-star-raul-catinas-fate-sent-me-where-im-supposed-to-be/

ORANGE Romania phone website calling him "the terrible kid of K-1" https://www.orange.ro/info/sport/altele/2949431

You must understand a thing, Catinas and many other Romanian kickboxers are good enough to win 10 ISKA titles, but they fight in own promotions. Fighting for ISKA world title is shit, they are not like WBC/WBA/IBF in boxing. In kickboxing we have GLORY, SUPERKOMBAT titles, the same as in MMA. And not even ONE Championship now is not considered at GLORY level. SUPERKOMBAT promoted with K-1 and was vanished by abbuse of office.

.karellian-24 (talk) 17:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Keep 2 reasons. At that point we had no rankings, and he would pass being top 10 heavyweight. He was qualified for the Final 16 of heavyweight, it is called the Seoul Final 16 final and is part of the finals event (Seoul and Tokyo). TWICE was qualified then we can presume he could have been top 10 at some point. SECONDLY, actually he meets WP:GNG, Thom Harinck described him as "perhaps the hardest white hitter in heavyweight history". In several articles. So he is good for the kickboxing. Good enough to have a page. Not just a gesture of goodwill, but he also meets WP:GNG. .karellian-24 (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Thom Harinck is arguably a legend coach and the longest coach ever in kickboxing, inventing this sport in Netherlands. HOW IS THAT NOT NOTABLE? That Cătinaș is a phenomenon, being known in the kickboxing world as the White Tyson.

Thom Harinck describing Cătinaș as "perhaps the hardest white hitter in heavyweight history" Sport.ro (Pro X) https://www.sport.ro/local-kombat/reactia-lui-mike-tyson-cand-a-vazut-ca-raul-catinas-are-tatuaj-cu-el-ce-a-facut-fostul-campion-de-box.html

Legendary Daniel Ghita telling "all the children want to be like Daniel Ghita and Raul Catinas" https://www.siamfightmag.com/en/others-styles-en/interviews-other-styles-en/kick-boxing-en/404-daniel-ghita-rumania

Bloody Elbow calling the win of Mighty Mo over Cătinaș in 2010 Final 16 as MOST SIGNIFICANT before the final and his quarter-final bout against Peter Aerts. https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/12/9/1865563/k-1-world-grand-prix-2010-preview-alistair-overeem-semmy-schilt-on

"White Tyson" aka Raul Cătinaș meets real Mike Tyson https://www.sport.ro/local-kombat/reactia-lui-mike-tyson-cand-a-vazut-ca-raul-catinas-are-tatuaj-cu-el-ce-a-facut-fostul-campion-de-box.html also covered by Evenimentul Zilei https://evz.ro/reactia-lui-mike-tyson-cand-a-vazut-ca-raul-catinas-are-tatuaj-cu.html

Largest combat sports site in the Netherlands interviewing him http://www.mixfight.nl/forum/showthread.php?92907-Interview-Raul-Catinas-(K1-Europe-GP-won-van-Leko)&s=4bfe8acd55d78b374ac54188388f4096

Fight Star Asia talks with STAR Raul Catinas https://fightsportasia.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/fsa-talks-w-superkombat-star-raul-catinas-fate-sent-me-where-im-supposed-to-be/

ORANGE Romania phone website calling him "the terrible kid of K-1" https://www.orange.ro/info/sport/altele/2949431

You must understand a thing, Catinas and many other Romanian kickboxers are good enough to win 10 ISKA titles, but they fight in own promotions. Fighting for ISKA world title is shit, they are not like WBC/WBA/IBF in boxing. In kickboxing we have GLORY, SUPERKOMBAT titles, the same as in MMA. And not even ONE Championship now is not considered at GLORY level. SUPERKOMBAT promoted with K-1 and was vanished by abbuse of office.

.karellian-24 (talk) 17:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not going to attempt to respond to everything you posted, just the important points. He didn't qualify for the final 16 by winning any Grand Prix events, he was one of six of the fighters voted in by fans (at least in Seoul). An overall record of 1 win and 3 losses in Grand Prix tournaments hardly is evidence of being a world top 10 fighter. Liverkick still existed back in 2010 and 2012, so you need to show an actual ranking, not just a claim that he should have been in the top 10. You made similar erroneous claims at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khayal Dzhaniev (2nd nomination). For example, here is a link to Liverkick's January 2011 rankings [1] and you'll see Catinas is ranked 25th. In their January 2013 rankings [2] he's not even ranked. Please quit making up your own notability rules and rankings and using them at AfD discussions. In addition, interviews do not count as coverage suitable for demonstrating WP:GNG. Pick out a few references you believe show he meets WP:GNG and I'll look at them, but please don't WP:BLUDGEON. Since he doesn't meet WP:NKICK you need to show that he meets WP:GNG. Papaursa (talk) 19:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• • Comment Papa, I don't watch MMA/UFC often, but I do watch kickboxing. I know absolutely everything about it. 1. First of all, it's not important how he reached TWICE the Final 16 finals. If we question the others' value, 90% of the heavyweights on Wikipedia are poorer than Cătinaş. First time was through K-1, second time was through the sister of K-1 (Superkombat). 2. Secondly, the vote was about something else, about who impressed in the season if I am not wrong. I am not entirely sure though. He qualified through the K-1 ColliZion 2009 Final Elimination and the K-1 World Grand Prix 2010 in Bucharest which ended as K-1 Europe's GP (Lodz was a shitty qualifying tournament, but he failed to win it because of Zabit Samedov). Stop being so funny with the WGP tournaments of K-1, because some had World Grand Prix names but were pissed poor. Irimia got the Collizion and he never put shitty shows such as in Warsaw or Vilnius for instance. Lodz was so strong because it was organised by Local Kombat/Superkombat/Irimia. In Warsaw Daniil Sapljoshin of Estonia won. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE LEVEL? Some were not as good even as the Superkombat's WGPs. Daniil Sapljoshin would have never won a Superkombat tournament, they never had such a poor kickboxer winning an event. Sapljoshin owns a Wikipedia page and lost by KO in Romania. The other one, who won Vilnius, I mean Mindaugas Sakalauskas also lost by the same 1st ROUND KO. What the hell? Daniil Sapljoshin is on Wikipedia and Cătinaş is not. The Estonian lost to Ciobanu, now I can tell you Cătinaş would have walked through Ciobanu. Ciobanu was 2nd tier heavyweight in Romania, Cătinaş was 1st with Ghita, Adegbuyi and Morosanu. And Iftimoaie, Sora and Zmarandescu. Raul was 21 year old at that time. Of course, Kemayo's qualification different, Cătinaş qualified through a superfight after the Final Elimination. Btw, for knowledge, Eduard Irimia was organising the K-1 events for Europe. Note: Cătinaş was the 2nd youngest participated ever after Badr Hari in the K-1 finals. And what, do you count his results where? At K-1? Kickboxing record is not just abut K-1. Plus he was young. What? Ghita not a legend because he has a short career in K-1, 2/2 finals losing to Schilt and Saki at extra-round? K-1 eventually disbanded. Catinas lacked experience at K-1. Edwards if you remember well he knocked Overeem down before being KOed. Kemayo for instance was losing his fights in Local Kombat (ex-Superkombat). Superkombat was the 2nd promotion in Europe after It's Showtime (as Local Kombat), after 1st in 2012 before Ultimate Glory (and also in the world). Deleted by abuse of office. After Ultimate Glory got Andurand and Superkombat became 1st. The problem is the kickboxing rules don't equal the MMA rules. Cătinaş should be qualified, fought in K-1 and Superkombat a lot of matches. And also Superkombat should have been on Wikipedia and counted as a 1st tier promotion. Moreover we should add some easier rules for kickboxing, to equal the rules of MMA. I mean if they fought in some promotions, if they won some titles from China and Romania and maybe Enfusion. Because there is discrimination against kickboxing. Ok, I got wrong, we had 1 site of rankings Liverkick, with some rules that you must beat the fighter to rank higher. Not 5 sites.

Yes, if Liverkick wouldn't have been disappeared, Dzhaniev would have been top 10. Dzhaniev in his division is poorer than Cătinaş, but he beat Buakaw in 2015. A kickboxer who beat still prime Buakaw is not on Wikipedia? And Cătinaş is a phenomenon and very know in Europe. Combat Press have different and very subjective rankings. At Liverkick you had to beat a top 10 fighter to reach higher than him. Dzhaniev with the MMA rules would have been on Wikipedia. :) Such fighters with his talent, should be on Wikipedia. He also beat Christian Baya and others. There are much poorer fighters than Dzhaniev on Wikipedia. They should change the rules, if you beat 3 or 5 fighters with Wikipedia, you should also be on Wikipedia. Cătinaș KOed legends like Leko and Slowinski, defeated Mighty Mo at the rematch and KOed also Guidon who was Ultimate Glory finalist against Saki (lost by decision to both Saki and Schilt). SO FUNNY, because Cătinaș is knocking guys with Wikipedia! Don't you see there is a logical problem? Prime Poturak, Daniel Sam of Glory, Paula Matale, Rozenstruik etc serious opponents also. Like I said, Romania is very good at kickboxing, why would our promotions need ISKA and WKN? A Romanian promotion even now is promoting with ISKA, WKN promoted with Local Kombat/Superkombat for 15 years and Irimia's brother is working for WKN. Do you think it's hard to fight for a world title? Shitty fighters from France are "world champions", fighting in regional promotions, they don't even have money for creating own belts. And not even television. ISKA/WKN should be on the list of rules, but this is overrated, since the promotion titles have become more important in kickboxing. And not just Dzhaniev, Roman Kleibl is also gone, should have been on Wikipedia. Solid Czech heavyweight, probably in prime better than prime Hron who at some point reached top 10 because of the poorer opposition.

Cătinaş beat Leko, Slowinski, Mo, Guidon, Carter Williams, Poturak etc and he is not on Wikipedia. 90% of them by KO. Wake up Wikipedia! Dzhaniev beat a top 10 Buakaw and Christian Baya former Glory challenger and he is also not on Wikipedia. Facts! To see how wrong is this site. .karellian-24 (talk) 22:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• • • Comment Cătinaş ranked 25th when he was younger and when some heavyweights were close to retirement. Because Rico Verhoeven was 23rd for instance, Pavel Zhuravlev was 20th and after became #2 ranked light-heavyweight after Vakhitov. As you see, Cătinaş beat Mo (#24) and Guidon (#18) by KO, and with the most he couldn't meet because were older. This was before beating Mo at the rematch and Guidon! We can assume he was at least top 15 ranked. But Wikipedia rules are dumb and discriminate kickboxing compared to MMA/boxing, even a top 25 kickboxer should be on the site! Right or not? Do you know how many poor kickboxers fight for ISKA/WKN world titles? .karellian-24 (talk) 22:45, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Papaursa: Cătinaş could meet WP:GNG, because of the following sources:

Largest Romanian newspaper Gazeta Sporturilor (launched in 1924, homonym of Gazetta Dello Sport in Italy) calls him "youngest participant ever in the K-1 Final 16". Even though some sources say Badr Hari and Cătinas second, but is still ok. https://www.gsp.ro/sporturi/altele/raul-catinas-revine-in-ring-dupa-4-ani-motivul-halucinant-al-retragerii-temporare-atac-la-ghita-n-a-vrut-sa-lupte-cu-nimeni-591098.html

Legendary coach Thom Harinck describing Cătinaș as "perhaps the hardest white hitter in heavyweight history" Sport.ro (the White Mike Tyson of the kickboxing) https://www.sport.ro/local-kombat/reactia-lui-mike-tyson-cand-a-vazut-ca-raul-catinas-are-tatuaj-cu-el-ce-a-facut-fostul-campion-de-box.html

Legendary kickboxing Daniel Ghita telling "all the children want to be like Daniel Ghita and Raul Catinas" (example, model in Romania) https://www.siamfightmag.com/en/others-styles-en/interviews-other-styles-en/kick-boxing-en/404-daniel-ghita-rumania

After, Daniel Ghita and Raul Catinas engaged in a media war. Why would Ghita respond him if he would be a poor kickboxer https://www.digisport.ro/alte-sporturi/raspuns-devastator-pe-care-i-l-a-dat-daniel-ghita-lui-raul-catinas-cum-a-putut-sa-l-numeasca-553381 (most popular sports channel in Romania)

Prosport, the 2nd largest sports newspaper in Romania calls him "the terrible child of K-1" https://www.prosport.ro/alte-sporturi/raul-catinas-copilul-teribil-al-k1-ului-revine-in-ring-dupa-4-ani-ce-spune-despre-daniel-ghita-18989003

Not to mention Raul trained with the best gyms in the Netherlands, from Chakuriki Gym and Mike's Gym to ARJ Trainingen now of Eersel, Khbabez and Londt. Plus with Gustafsson at Stockholm.

.karellian-24 (talk) 22:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Papaursa: To see how wrong are the kickboxing rules and discriminated, how many fights do you need to have with the UFC in order to get a page? 2 fights? Cătinaș has 10 fights in the old K-1. .karellian-24 (talk) 23:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

He has just signed for GLORY. I think a lot of fights in Glory and K-1 is enough. .karellian-24 (talk) 13:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• My final comment, hopefully @.karellian-24: In multiple discussions, I have said that since you obviously don't like the existing notability criteria for kickboxers, you should seek to get them changed. AfD discussions are not the place, though I gave you suitable locations. You also need to quit making up your own reasons and rankings. Either show a ranking from an acceptable independent source or don't claim a fighter is top 10 just because you think he should be. The fact that he trained at some of the top Dutch gyms is a case of WP:NOTINHERITED and fighters aren't notable just because they're fighting for the Glory promotion. If these are the best independent reliable sources that show significant coverage of Catinas, then I feel even more confident about my vote. Here's my analysis of the sources you just mentioned.

The Gazeta Sporturilor is pre-fight promotional coverage and the fact that Catinas is the second youngest fighter to make the K-1 Final 16 is not an indicator of notability nor is it very in-depth coverage.

The sport.ro source is a 40 second video of Catinas talking and showing Mike Tyson kissing Catinas' tattoo of Tyson. Promotional and not significant coverage.

Ghita's comment that "all the children want to be like Daniel Ghita and Raul Catinas" is both self-promotional and only a passing mention of Catinas.

The Ghita-Catinas twitter spat was self-promotional for both as they both were trying to make comebacks. Hard to make a case that is significant, independent coverage.

The Prosport article is an interview with Catinas about him wanting to make a comeback after a 4 year retirement. Interviews don't meet WP:GNG.

So far I'm not seeing anything to show Catinas is WP notable. Papaursa (talk) 19:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• Delete- nothing has changed notability-wise since the article was deleted in 2014 so I see no problem in affirming that result. Reyk _YO! 17:37, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.