Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qooro taag

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus here leans to keep, though problems are noted. At least no one raised the suspicion of socking, so that's something. Drmies (talk) 16:09, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Qooro taag[edit]

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~~My current assessment is that this article is a hoax, as I cannot find any evidence in reliable sources that this massacre occurred or that a village was named after it.~~ Of the three sources currently cited, #1 is an unpublished thesis paper which does not appear to mention "qooro taag" in any capacity, and #3 also does not appear to mention "qooro taag". #2 is not a reliable source. Searching online, several unreliable sources describe a massacre in almost identical terms to the current article, but I can't find anything solid. Moreover, while Google Translate can definitely make mistakes, "erect penis" is not a suggested translation of "qooro taag". _signed,Rosguill ^talk 05:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC) 20:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for obvious reasons unless anyone can find evidence to the contrary. Lusotitan (Talk | Contributions) 06:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revoking deletion vote per discussion below. Lusotitan (Talk | Contributions) 15:49, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep

Firstly, just because a source is not in English, doesn't make it unreliable. Furthermore, you should note that Somaliland, the successor state of SNM has been trying to keep such war crimes quiet. This even happened this month; see for example this source that details the killings in Borama literally a month before the Qooro Taag incident February 1991 and regularly jails critics.
Markus Hoehne is arguably the most knowledgeable author on northern Somalia today. How are his writings unreliable? Nobody as far as I know has published more books on the Sool, Saanaag or Cayn regions. He combines his academic skills with field work and has been in all these places. I have just added a quote to prove that Hoehne does in fact use the term.
As for translation taag is a somali word that means upright, but it sometimes needs suffixes to work on google translate; try "taagan". Qooro is slang for penis, but once again, since it has other meanings, its more useful if you use a suffix. For example google the term "qoorihiisa" (where i added the suffix hiisa meaning "his"). Most returns will have discussions that speak of this nature.
Pure knowledge of the tensions will dictate that this event is plausible, when you consider the SNM's anger at the 1988 Isaaq genocide which they often blame on Darood clan members as a whole. This massacre happened as soon as the Siad Barre government collapsed when they knew there would be no repercussions.
In the rest of the chapter, Hoehne explains that most people in Sool acknowledge that this event happened.
Please do not whitewash crimes against isolated minorities by the Somali National Movement, especially when you consider that the Somali source claims that ~~Bihi (the current president of Somaliland) was involved~~.

92.19.189.134 (talk) 07:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Move & cleanup Move to "Bancadde", as that is what it is referred to in the only vaguely reliable English Language source. Hoehne's dissertation uses the name "Bancadde". The Qooro Taag name appears based off a single, poorly translated, interview with a Somali. Cleanup I think includes removing the "Qoroo Taag" story, while still mentioning the massacre. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!} 07:32, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Qooro Taag is the name of the massacre. This topic has huge geopolitical significance since it is partially why the whole Sanaag, Cayn and Sool regions remain disputed. These massacres are still going on; for example this incident where a hundred died only 4 months ago where one side was backed by the SNM succeeders. If we don't document the background to these killings that happen every year and merely mention the locality, then it merely leaves people confused.
Comment Since several commentators on this page have insunuated that non-English sources are no good, it stands to reason that this discussion is a pandora's box that means we will have to review Wikipedia's policies on non-English sources. The relevant policy is WP:NOENG and I'm willing to open a discussion there to see if that paragraph needs to be reviewed courtesy of comments by Rosguill, Lusotitan and Captain Eek. 92.19.189.134 (talk) 07:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Folks weren't saying they were no good, but rather that they didn't have an accompanying translation, and thus folks couldn't judge if they were/weren't reliable, or what they even said. We sure do allow non-English sources, but they need translation, and machine translation tends not to be great. The machine translation shows that the "salaan media" source doesn't mention "Qooro Taag", and rather calls the village "Bancade". The "Sagal News" source also doesn't call it Qooro tag, and rather uses "Bancadde".Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!} 08:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But all the articles are about the broader tensions that exists between Dhulbahante and Isaaq who are either directly warring (through states such as Khatumo (Dhulbahante-dominated) or Somaliland (Isaaq dominated). This incident is important because it is arguably the first flashpoint for all the subsequent wars that have happened since, but euphemisms are rife, so you have to read between the lines. Also, for laypeople, terms such as "reer Jibril" or "aden Naleeye" seem confusing, but to sum up, these are sub-clans of the Dhulbahante. 92.19.189.134 (talk) 08:04, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If the articles don't say anything about "Qoroo taag", then we can't really say anything about it. And alas, we can't read between the lines because that would be original research, which we don't allow. Sources call the village "Bancadde", and it seems the article is going to serve double duty as an article both about the town and the massacre, so we should call it what sources call it. Perhaps that is coatracking, but I don't know if there is even enough info to justify one article, let alone two. Also, please try to not edit your comments after you've made them, and instead just make new comments, or make an addendum at the end that says Edit: blah blah blah. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!} 08:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The village Bancadde is so small and nomadic that it seems pointless to make; it might not even exist in a few years time if residents suddenly exhort more nomadism. This massacre however, lives on in people's memories, thereby assesses geopolitical leanings and as such is the more notable topic. But since this area is to some extent cut-off from outside contact, more leeway should be given for any content that comes out of it. Naima Qorane is one example of many others whose voices are silenced in this area. Hoehne is as far as I know the only independent western social researcher who visited this area. 92.19.189.134 (talk) 08:13, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Translation The main concern about translation I have seen concerns the title. Thereby I suggest that you translate the term "cawradooda" which is used in the allsanaag article and means genitalia but for some reason is translated as "nakedness" on Google translate. But I hope the term nakedness is at least accepted as a near-synonym of the way it is used in the article. Since we now have both English and Somali authors using this term who are independent of each other, I think its a solid entry. 92.19.189.134 (talk) 08:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Move and clean up per Captain Eek. There’s more work needed on this to provide context that will allow the general reader to understand it, and we need better explanations of things than “hulseyistic mooseknuckle”. ~~There’s a reference to the massacre.~~ One thing that concerns me though is that although the massacre apparently took place in 1991, the earliest reference to it seems to be in Hill, in 2010. Given that there are so many Somali websites, discussion forums etc. I’m surprised to see no mentions earlier than this. Indeed online all the articles I can find on a google search were created in 2016. This pattern might be consistent with partisan ‘recovered memory’ of an atrocity that took place an unverifiably long time ago being pushed for some political end. Mccapra (talk) 08:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Claiming "they had erections showing" gives the impression they were nude when they were not. That's why terms such as "bulge" are better I think. 92.19.189.134 (talk) 08:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 11:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 11:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 11:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 11:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Does not seem like a hoax - as this PhD dissertation (ref2 in article at present) from Martin Luther University of Halle-Wittenberg describes a witness account of the incident on page 357 (page 386) - including the erection bit. I would question whether this meets gng as a standalone - and if not, whether it should be merged to a relevant timeline article. Icewhiz (talk) 11:54, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I get an ‘access denied message with the link to that PhD dissertation. What’s the date on the dissertation and does it provide a source for claims about this massacre? Mccapra (talk) 22:39, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
2011. It a s3 link and they die - google scholar search "Political Orientations and Repertoires of Identification: State and Identity Formation in Northern Somalia" - there is a working pdf link on the search.Icewhiz (talk) 22:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete - I don't think that the mass killing was a hoax, but I think the article fails OR/NPOV. One source is a news article which was written the same day the AfD started[1] which brings in a significant BLP issue (associating the massacre with Muse Bihi Abdi) and which seems odd. This is the only source that would suggest this massacre has RS which discuss it as a single event. Hoehne groups the event with other killings of Dhulbahante (although he does use the wording Bancadde massacre). The other sources don't seem to mention this event. I look forward to more sources discussing this tragedy in particular and about the 1991 bloodshed in general, but to me, this article fails OR. I'd support merging or keeping with an expanded scope. Smmurphy^(Talk) 03:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, the timestamp on that date is not a date; it is simply a calender. Tomorrow, that date will say "26th of February". That news sources is several years old. As for lack of sourcing, look at the date. This event happened a few months after the collapse of the government, and basically most institutions including news agencies collapsed. 79.67.84.230 (talk) 07:56, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article looks a bit different now, and I think partiality issues may have been addressed since it now includes a background and context. The similar incident only 1 month apart has a higher death tally; maybe that makes it more important and as such maybe it should be moved to "Borama and Dilla massacres"? Just a suggestion. 79.67.84.230 (talk) 08:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator comment I'm striking my assessment of the article as a hoax, as it appears to be clear that this is not the case. However, I remain concerned that several of the currently assembled sources may not be reliable, and many of them do not refer to the incident described as "Qooro taag", which leads me to believe that at the very minimum the article should be moved to a more appropriate title, as we would otherwise be in possible WP:SYNTH territory. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 20:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the name "qooro taag" was carefully chosen by SNM militants to contrast with goc taag (raised napkin), a symbol for peace, as a sign of exhibiting the opposite sentiment. Otherwise why such a close usage of words? The goc taag incident (that occured 4 months prior btw) was what was supposed to have ushered in peace. Moving the page would hide the double entendre that exists here. That's why I think the current title is most apt. 92.13.131.12 (talk) 23:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The name may be clever, but in an encyclopedia what's more important is that the name is recognizable by people who are looking for the article. Can you provide citations to reliable sources demonstrating that this is a commonly used title for the subject? _signed,Rosguill ^talk 00:00, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 06:59, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 15:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.