Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Puttana Venkatramana Raju

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. We seem to agree that this would need a full rewrite even should the subject be notable after all.  Sandstein  07:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Puttana Venkatramana Raju

Puttana Venkatramana Raju (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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fails WP:BIO by a long shot. As far as I can see - nice chap, did service in the army, worked as an engineer, died. That's it. Ironholds (talk) 11:48, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

• Ironholds - you dont seem to have read through the page - as is evident from your statement "did service in the army" nowhere in the page was this mentioned and Puttana Venkatramana Raju never served in the army. In fact, Puttana Venkatramana Raju was a pre-eminent Engineer who built several major projects under adverse conditions in Pre-independant and Independant India. The projects he worked upon during construction or maintenance phases like the Dowleswaram Barrage and the Prakasam Barrage and exist even today and are considered mega projects in Civil Engineering. The page was worked upon and external references were added, dates of birth and death were recorded, assertions of notability were added to the first few lines in the lead section, other sites like All Experts which contained details of Puttana Venkataraman Raju were linked and a few helpful editors tried to improve grammar and presentation of the page. With all these changes made, the page would now meet the criterion and I request that the All Expert references be allowed to continue as they clearly show details relating to the honorific Rao Bahadur, and to Hindu High school where Puttana Venkataraman Raju studied initially. Puttana Venkatramana Raju was awarded the Rao Bahadur by the Govt. of India (this is similar to the British Govt. award of OBE) and he was also an elected Fellow of the Institution of Engineers. He contibuted towards Social upliftment and excellence and this page captures relevant aspects of his life. Unfortunately there have twice been removals of the All Experts site links (reason for this deletion was given as "mirror site" but plese note- All Experts is not in anyway connected to Wiki) which refer to the award of the honorific Rao Bahadur, and to Hindu High school where Puttana Venkataraman Raju studied initially.Rajendrarajun (talk) 12:22, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

  My apologies; I was under the impression that "Indian Service of Engineers" was similar to our REME (the British Army's dedicated engineering unit). Allexperts is indeed a mirror; they copy our content. The fact that they aren't officially linked with us is irrelevant. The way the references are formatted makes it difficult; we cannot say how much of the content is about Raju, and how much is irrelevant. The Rao Bahadur is a claim to notability, but it must be backed up with reliable, independent, third-party sources. Ironholds (talk) 12:46, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

  I can't blame Ironholds for being confused. The article is almost unreadable in its present form. It is very difficult to comb out facts from spin, POV, OR, and unstinting praise. Bad writing is not a reason to delete, but in this case the article would need to be stubbified and I'm not sure what would go into a stub.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I did see this only after answering on the talks page. To be more specific: One original is now at The Hindu Higher Secondary School. The other is not so obvious as Prominent Rajus had been deleted and converted into a redirect. In any case that needs to be backed up by references. which seem to be difficult to find. --Tikiwont (talk) 13:00, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. The sources listed under "References" are print-only, and I do not have the background knowledge to evaluate them. For the notability of recipients of the Rao Bahadur, see Rao Bahadur. For the notability of a fellowship of Institution of Engineers, consider the notability of a fellowship in comparable organizations in other countries. I am not clear how common a fellowship of the Institution of Engineers is. I cannot find "Puttana Venkatramana Raju" at the site http://www.ieindia.org , but confirmation of the fellowship should be available in a printed publicatrion of the Institution of Engineers. -- Eastmain (talk) 15:55, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The page on Puttana Venkataramana Raju was worked upon to improve it to Wiki standards and the following were done:

+References were provided from published sources-(1)1922 Kavyathirtha Shri Janamanchi Seshadri Sharma has translated 'Brahmanda Purana'in poetical form of Andhra language ref the 11th line of page 774 in the ultimate part of the 5th sub-chapter of 'Upodhata Pada'(2)1966 1st edition of Sri Muktarishi vamshodbhava Sri Soma Vamsha Arya Kshatriya Purana mentioning the 32 Gothras and Vamshavalli, and subsequent editions with authentication by Sri Sri Jagadguru Shankaracharya mahasamsthanam Sharada Peetham Sringeri ref 9111/76 camp Begaluru date 10.11.1976 & research by Vidwan S R Krishna Shastri Nivriddha Samskrita Adhyapakuru Arya Vidya Shala High School, Begaluru - Published by Sri B N SrinivasaRaju, Grandhakartha Panaganti Gopala Raju(3)1972 1st edition of Sri Soma Vamsha Puranam Rendo Bhagam Rendo Adhyayam- Published by Sri B N SrinivasaRaju, Grandhakartha Panaganti Gopala Raju(4)Avadi Township, Avadi Municipal Office, Madras 54, D Extract Year 1975 Month July Page 8 Annual No.50 Monthly No.1

+External links were provided for (1)Hindu High School Triplicane Madras(2)College of Engineering Guindy Madras (3)Indian Service of Engineers (4)Institution of Engineers(India)

+Date maintenance and general fixes were done by several Wiki editors

+parameters cleanup, grammar edit, to improve and wikify were done by several Wiki editors

+Categorisation was done by several Wiki editors

+citation and notability references were provided in the lead

The page is factual and inspirational, it is notable and should be restored to full Wiki status. My thanks to those Wiki editors who tried to improve it. Rajendrarajun (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

• Delete as unsalvageable in present form, and notability impossible to determine from present version, without prejudice to re-creating as an actual article. This article is its own worst enemy because of its testimonial writing style, its padding, its POV. Read the guidelines and start from scratch, keeping in mind WP:NONENG. I'm very dubious about someone with an obvious connection to the subject writing an article based entirely on non-English sources. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 17:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. -- -SpacemanSpiff 17:51, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

• Weak keep there could be something salvaged out of this article- though by the time it is encyclopediac, it will be 1/10th of its present size

trakesht (talk) 12:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - 1) This is a vanity article sourced from caste publications (where they exaggerate and list caste members "achievements"). The first three references are caste group publications, the fourth one is a Govt annual record in Avadi municipal office for Avadi township, which would mention everyone who worked in that office/project for that particular year. This sounds like an attempt by a family member trying to publicize him 2) He was a PWD engineer who was "involved" in a few big projects. Nothing notable about it. he was not the architect or the prime backer. He was just involved in a project where hundreds (even thousands) of Public Works Department personnel were also involved in construction and maintenance. 3)A winner of College of Engineering Guindy gold medal (every department awards one every year and there would have been 4 or 5 depts when he studied there) or a member of Indian Engineering Service isn't notable in itself. The IES employs thousands. And Rao Bahdur's were handed out in hundreds every year by the British Raj 4) If he was notable in the projects he would have been mentioned in Govt Gazettes most of which are available in Gbooks. He is not. --Sodabottle (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

• I have seen the above response and it makes sweeping generalisations without going into the details, I will now tell you what I mean here "caste publication where they exaggerate" - did you read the said reference material? It has no exaggeration as suggested by you. "Rao Bahadurs were handed out in hundreds" well this one was earned on merit and so are the deserving many of those awards even today as Padma awards in India. "Every department awards one(a Gold medal) every year" well for your information the Gold Medal is awarded by the University to the Academic topper among all the students in its colleges at the end of the entire period of 5 years of the B.E. degree, Your inferences about Avadi are laughable - you havent the faintest idea of the difference between what it referred to and your generalisation there. Therefore I would say that you are criticising without trying to go through the merits. Further there are pages in Wiki on Rao Bahadur awards (should that page exist if your criticism is about all those who earned those awards-then what about other awards like the Padma awards...?), there is a page about College of Engineering Guindy Madras, there are pages in Wiki about many ethnic groups/communities (would you group them into "caste" pages that exaggerate?). I note that you have written as Sodabottle about Pandyans, a biography of an Indian Civil Servant, a biography of a Chettiar- what about all those- they are OK to continue are they?). I write to clarify that the article I've written is about a person who defied convention, went against his family and chose his vocation and excelled in it under adverse conditions while creating infrastructure for a developing India- The projects he worked upon during construction or maintenance phases like the Dowleswaram Barrage and the Prakasam Barrage and Madras Airport exist even today and are considered mega projects in Civil Engineering. This is also my first Wiki article which commenced in November and I find that certain editors(who sometimes dont even write using their own names) take opportunities to speedily delete rather than develop new articles, if you go through the history of the article you will see how I've tried to constantly add references, external links... but there seems to be very little patience to see it develop and instead this is the second time that the article is fighting to continue. However I will continue in my efforts to improve the article and add references as I locate them - as required from various published sources and look forward to helpful input from those editors who have contributed to improving the article.

Rajendrarajun (talk) 13:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

• 1)Sources: All i am asking for are Reliable sources. [1]. a) Three of the references you have provided are caste genealogies. ("'Brahmanda Purana'", "Sri Muktarishi vamshodbhava Sri Soma Vamsha Arya Kshatriya Purana", and "Sri Soma Vamsha Puranam Rendo Bhagam Rendo Adhyayam"). Caste genealogies/biographies published by the same caste organisations are as i said "prone to exaggeration". b) The Avadi Township Annual is a Local Government record, it would naturally record all civil servants that worked there/involved in projects. The question is of notability and not of existence. If the engineer's name is present in a Govt gazette explaining his involvement in the Prakasam Barrage, i will withdraw my objection.
• 2)Regarding the Gold medal. I am a alumnus of College of Engineering Guindy (CEG) -batch of 2002. So i know how many gold medals get awarded. When Raju was at CEG (early 20th century) there would have been at least three departments (civil, mechanical and electrical schools). Every year a batch graduates from CEG. Every batch of every department has a topper. Currently there are nearly 20 departments in CEG and 20 Gold medalists pass out every year. (For the non Indians, it means he was the Valedictorion of the Civil Engineering Class of 19xx). IMO this is not significant by itself.
• 3)Regarding Rao Bahadur Awards. I was pointing out, getting a Rao Bahadur alone is not notable by itself, because as i pointed out it was a political title awarded the British Govt. Hundreds were given the award each year. Some people who got it were notable, some were not. Again IMO a person does not become notable just by getting Rao Bahadur awards.
• 4)My Articles. All of the articles i have either created (pandyan kings etc) meet [2] guidelines. I have myself refrained from creating many biographies i wanted to create, because they did not meet the guidelines. Further the articles i have worked on are sourced with easily verifiable RS. My choosing not to reveal my real name is not an issue here. If my articles violate guidelines, they should be(and have been) modified. For perspective, lets see ones you have listed - a) Pandyans are Kings of Pandyan Empire, b) the civil servant is a Tamil Film historian with multiple books and citations in Gbooks and Gscholar c) the chettiar is a member of the first Indian Parliament and one of the framers of the indian constitution.
• 5)Dowleswaram Barrage and the Prakasam Barrage and Madras Airport: My earlier point stands - there were probably thousands of civil servants, engineers and other workers involved in these projects. If Raju was a senior bureaucrat/architect involved in those projects, his name will be in Government Gazettes. Please look for it and provide the references. I always assume good faith. If you provide them, i will withdraw my objection
• 6)a person who defied convention, went against his family and chose his vocation and excelled in it under adverse conditions. This is not again enough to warrant a separate article.
• 7) To summarize : From what i read, Raju was a Engineer, a honors student, a civil servant (not a high ranking one), was awarded Rao Bahadur, and was involved in many Government projects. IMO i dont think this is notable enough. Also i believe your sources (caste genealogies) are not reliable sources.--Sodabottle (talk) 16:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

• Delete Fine gentleman, but not notable per our guidelines. I've spent some extra time searching for sources on this one, and am unable to find any, not even passing mentions in any significant journal or book. As Sodabottle has already mentioned, the Rao Bahadur title does not confer notability. It's an honor for the recipient, but just like we don't provide blanket notability for Silver Star recipients, and this title isn't as significant as the SS. College gold medals are good, but not significant in showing notability. Fellow of the Institution of Engineers (India) is not like a Fellow of IEEE etc, it's more like a CPA status, with additional qualifiers. The references within the article are sub-local in nature and can at best be taken as evidence of existence. -SpacemanSpiff 05:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• Delete I could not find any reliable sources on the subject, and have no idea what the "publications" listed in the Reference section are, how they relate to the subject, and what they are being used to cite. Even if all the details inthe article could be verified, notability would be borderline. Barring the availability of such sources, this article is more suited to a family history website. Abecedare (talk) 18:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Delete. Notability hasn't been shown, and even if notability was likely the article would need entirely rewriting as it suffers from excessive POV and promotional tone. There's no sign of mentions in reliable sources. I think WP:NOTMEMORIAL applies. Fences&Windows 21:36, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.