Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pizza cheese

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2012 September 28.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. A number of merge comments exist, but seem to ignore the fundamental facts of the discussion. Sources dug up (by e.g., NorthAmerica1000) strongly indicate the notability of Pizza Cheese independent of Pizza (Who'da thunk it?), and thus comments to the contrary appear to be more guesses as to what one expects than an analysis of the article and situation. They therefor can't be construed to carry much weight. Wily D 15:33, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pizza_cheese[edit]

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The article lists no references or sources, since December 2009. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stybn (talk • contribs)

Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Northamerica1000^(talk) 13:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No potential sources, looks like original research to me. --Koui² (talk) 12:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Processed cheese. No sources, smells like ~~cheese~~original research. See Sprout crumble. --Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 14:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - there is a product called "pizza cheese" sold in Japan. As can be seen there is an interwiki link at the bottom of the page. I don't know if that is really much of an argument for keeping the article. JoshuSasori (talk) 12:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Keep~~ Strong Keep – per WP:NRVE, because topic notability is based upon the availability of significant coverage in reliable sources, rather than whether or not sources are present in articles. Also, it passes WP:GNG; the specific topic of pizza cheese has received a considerable amount of press.

Sources include, but are not limited to: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. Northamerica1000^(talk) 12:41, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a look through those sources, and I don't think any of them sustain the notability of this article's subject. They've got the phrase "pizza cheese" in them, but they don't talk about "pizza cheese" as a concept. In fact, it looks like all you've done is a news search for "pizza cheese" and linked the first 15 results. This doesn't change my opinion to redirect. --Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 14:37, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did you access all of the paywalled sources, and read the entire articles? Northamerica1000^(talk) 15:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I read everything I could, and came to the same conclusions as Purplebackpack89 below. But it's up to everyone to agree on a consensus as to whether sources establish notability, not on me to prove they don't. --Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – The article has been improved and sources have been added. Northamerica1000^(talk) 13:46, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - The "sources" you added are one source that mentions, but seemingly does not discuss, "pizza cheese". - SummerPhD (talk) 15:29, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes sources are used to verify information in articles, rather than solely to qualify a topic's notability. My comment was in response to the above nomination of this article as being unsourced, (which actually isn't a valid deletion rationale per WP:DELREASON, and per WP:NRVE, doesn't disqualify a topic's notability). Northamerica1000^(talk) 18:56, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In response to concerns about a lack of significant coverage by saying you had added sources, you pointed to one bare mention you added, which you called "sources". Your response to my concern does not address my concern. - SummerPhD (talk) 22:36, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect: Pizza cheese isn't independently notable of the pizza it's on. Nor is it really independently notable of the various types and brands of pizza cheese either p b p 15:18, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Pizza.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – More sources:

Significant coverage: Technology of Cheesemaking - Google Books
Significant coverage: Kindstedt, P.S. "Recent developments in the science and technology of pizza cheese". Australian journal of dairy technology. Retrieved September 27, 2012.
Significant coverage: Reinbold; et al. (April 18, 1978). "Preparation of Pizza Cheese". United States Patent and Trademark Office. Retrieved September 27, 2012.
Significant coverage: Quarne, E.L. (April 1968). "Recovery of Milk Solids in Direct Acidification and Traditional Procedures of Manufacturing Pizza Cheese". Volume 51, Issue 4. Journal of Dairy Science. pp. 527–530. Retrieved September 27, 2012.
Significant coverage: "Effect of incorporation of denatured whey proteins on chemical composition and functionality of pizza cheese". Australian journal of dairy technology. Retrieved September 27, 2012.
Many more sources from Google Scholar comprised of significant coverage about this topic: here.
Beyond passing mentions: Revenue Management for the Hospitality Industry - David K. Hayes, Allisha Miller - Google Books
Another article: Continuous Production of Analogue Cheese

—Northamerica1000^(talk) 15:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can do a book search for "The weather in London" and find lots of hits - doesn't mean it's suitable for an article. --Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:55, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Just because sources use the term doesn't mean it's independently notable enough for its own article'. There are certain other topics that are almost always mentioned in the context of pizza cheese...namely, pizza and cheese. Since you can't divorce pizza cheese's notability from pizza's notability, or cheese's notability, the topic isn't deserving of its own article. Remember, passing GNG ≠ automatically keep the article. p b p 16:24, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There is no need to post sources in the AfD when they are already in the article; it serves no purpose other than to needlessly clutter the AfD. The editorializing that they are significant coverage is also unnecessary. p b p 16:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another editor recently stripped all of the sources comprised of significant coverage about the topic in this edit and then immediately again here. The provision of sources in AfD discussions is functional for many reasons. Northamerica1000^(talk) 20:34, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - to Pizza. Only a few of the source presented so far are actually anything more than very brief mentions. Even with the couple that do discuss the cheese at length, there really is not enough to have the article ever expand to anything more than a short stub. However, as someone else already pointed out, the notability of this product is pretty much forever tied to Pizza. I think it would be far more appropriate to actually add information on this product to the main Pizza article using the decent sources found, rather than changing it to a simple redirect or outright deletion. Rorshacma (talk) 16:53, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It would actually rehash numerous different articles we have on specific cheeses, processed cheese in general, and pizza.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Nomination is completely invalid, the lack of sourcing since December 2009 has nothing to do with whether the topic is notable. This article is over 10 years old, I am impressed to see an article that has existed for over 10 years, and been part of the processed cheese template for over 2 years, be nominated for deletion so cavalierly. Of course, non-cheese enthusiasts may not know that pizza cheese (which depending on the definition applied is actually a "cheese analogue"--which means FAKE) is the subject of a fair amount of scholarly research, e.g., Kindstedt et al.'s 1997 article Chemically-acidified pizza cheese production and functionality[17] (5th Cheese Symposium), Larson et al., Curd-forming techniques for making Pizza-cheese by direct acidification procedures, J. Dailly Sci. 50 (1967), Guinee, T.P. et al., The composition and functional properties of commercial Mozzarella, Cheddar, and analogue pizza cheese, Int'l J. of Dairy Tech, 51 (2000), Kinstedt and Guo, Recent developments in the science and technology of pizza cheese', Aust. J. Dairy Tech., 52 (1997), Breene et al, Manufacture of pizza cheese without starter, J. Dairy Sci. 47:1173 (1964), Govidnasamy-Lucey et al, Effect of Type of Concentrated Sweet Cream Buttermilk on the Manufacture, Yield, and Functionality of Pizza Cheese, J. Dairy Science 90:2675 (2007), and publications by Patrick Fox et al. [18]. These articles discuss the nature, composition, properties, production, and research on pizza cheese, as its a separate area of research from pizza itself.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 17:23, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Several of those appear to be about cheese in general with pizza cheese being mentioned in that context. I think we could easily have a "production of pizza" article that covers the cheese aspect within it or some of those sources could be incorporated into the history of pizza article or just the regular article on pizza. A redirect is not going to eliminate the rather limited amount of information provided here. Consider using these sources to expand other articles on the broader subject before entertaining the creation of an article such as this one.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:34, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the article having been in existence for X number of years says absolutely nothing about its worthiness p b p 17:52, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm not really worried about convincing pizza cheese jihadists like you guys!! Whether we could have a "production of pizza" article is not relevant to notability of pizza cheese; these articles show that pizza cheese is independently notable. And the fact that the article has existed for over 10 years is an anecdotal comment; consider the untold thousands of editors who have read this article since its creation and never once thought it unsuitable, its not a hidden low-traffic article.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 18:15, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and redirect - Again, the sources provided are trivial in nature. They do not speak specifically about the product but are only mention the product in passing. Just showing usage of the term in a publication does not establish notability of a subject. Others in this discussion have commented on required the required depth need not being met by supplied sources and I agree with them. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 17:41, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sheesh. The general ignorance of wikipedia editors regarding pizza cheese is astounding to me. Once they stopped regularly teaching Latin in schools, this is what we get! Placenta Neapolitana Caseus delenda est, people?--Milowent • ^hasspoken 18:20, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment – The article has been expanded with more reliable research and book sources as of the time of this post. These serve to qualify the topic's notability for a stand-alone article and can be used to expand it. Clearly a notable topic, per the extensive research publications that exist about the topic. Northamerica1000^(talk) 18:27, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Reply - I looked at the articles, in quite a few of them they are not talking about "pizza cheese" but "pizza" & "cheese". For instance, the the FDA article on pizza cheese is not about pizza cheese but instead it is about the amount of cheese that must be on a frozen pizza for it to be qualified as a pizza under USDA guidelines. What that means that that article is not about the subject of WP article but about the rules established by the US government to define a specific product, in this case frozen pizza (AP, Pittsburgh Press articles). The other are the same, whether it is about the proper method of making mozzarella ("pizza cheese", Fundamentals of Cheese Science) or the manufacture of processed cheese foods (Cheese analogues: a review). Further, in pretty much all of the pizza cheese sources you have provided are about the manufacture of mozzarella, which is using the term pizza cheese as a synonym for mozzarella.
      
      NA1K, you are not providing references to the subject of the WP article, you are providing links to sources that use the two words pizza and cheese together in the same source. It would be akin to me using sources that simply use the words burger and king in the same source to bolster the notability of the Burger King article, which is bunk. Just because you can find sources that use the term pizza and cheese together in the title does not mean the provided source is about the subject of the WP article pizza cheese.
      
      The reality is that pizza cheese is a marketing term or a synonym for mozzarella cheese and it is not a real product. Pizza is traditionally made with mozzarella, whether di buffulo or cows milk. Yes, some places add other types such as Italian types like Parmesan, Romano or or ricotta or non-Italian cheeses such as cheddar or jack. In the end pizza cheese is mozzarella (which is in fact bolstered in most of your provided sources!), and this article should be redirected to that article. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - "The reality is that pizza cheese is a marketing term, it is not a real product." Uh, you're simply wrong, and horrendously wrong about this.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 19:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        The research study sources in the article are primarily about the literal topic "pizza cheese". Please read them. Northamerica1000^(talk) 19:29, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        I did, hence me dissecting each source you provided. As I stated, the sources you provided are about mozzarella and processed cheese manufacture and use "pizza cheese" as a synonym for those products.--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per sources listed by Northamerica and Milowent. The topic appears to have received some significant coverage to pass GNG. Cavarrone (talk) 18:31, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GNG is a guideline and not the end-all-be-all of what should get its own article on Wikipedia. This subject overlaps with multiple different articles as has been noted from people who read the sources and as can be understood with a basic application of common sense. Deletion would be inappropriate as this is perfectly suitable as a redirect or maybe a disambiguation page. A stand-alone article does not seem justified even with the sources provided.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:34, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, and common sense says me the topic is indeed eligible of a separate article. The subject sounds notable, expandable and encyclopedic. Cavarrone (talk) 20:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How is that "common sense"? Do you really think a redirect or merge is so horrible? It is not like we would be losing anything terribly important. We have one tiny little stub that basically just says stuff we could add somewhere else.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Not often that I am in agreement with the super-duper-hyper-inclusionists, but c'mon...its cheese that goes no pizza. You can't just put any ol cheese on pizza. Cheddar pizza? Cheez-Wiz pizza? No. People out there discuss just what kind of cheese one puts on a pizza. It exists, and reliable sources confirm that. Jeesh. Tarc (talk) 20:14, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How does that preclude a redirect or merge? The source you provide is really just about pizza and would be suitable in the article on pizza.

P.S. People do, in fact, put cheddar cheese on pizza.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:52, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article has ample references found already to prove its notable. You can't delete something because you don't like it. Not how Wikipedia works. Perhaps listing every type of cheese that is found on pizza, and what the most popular types of pizza have, how big of an industry it is, what sort of cheese they made to do it with in ancient Greece, etc. Room for expansion. Dream Focus 21:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is your position on a redirect to the article on pizza or perhaps making it a dab page?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as in keep, not delete/redirect/merge. Dream Focus 01:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Perhaps listing every type of cheese that is found on pizza, and what the most popular types of pizza have, how big of an industry it is, what sort of cheese they made to do it with in ancient Greece, etc. Room for expansion." No. Not unless we are also going to start articles for Cheeseburger cheese, Macaroni and cheese cheese, Grilled cheese cheese, etc. listing types of cheeses used, most popular choices, etc. Either we have significant coverage in independent reliable sources or we don't. A term plus original research does not an article make. Heck, where's our article for Pizza crust flour? - SummerPhD (talk) 22:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that pizzas have had different types of cheeses throughout the world over the past thousands of years, isn't original research. And obviously we'd find sources about what the most popular type of cheese for pizza is and whatnot. And you can list cheeses used, without those cheeses having their own article. I just checked and found some news coverage about this. Working on the article now. Dream Focus 01:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that cheeseburgers have had different types of cheeses... and finding sources for the most popular cheeseburger cheese... Here's the seed for this much needed article. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and merge/redirect to pizza. I'm not convinced by any of the sources provided above that there's notability or substantive coverage on this topic. Most of them appear to be either passing mentions, or else uses of the (very common) phrase/concept "pizza cheese" to mean "cheese that goes on pizza" as opposed to "this particular type of processed cheese which is sometimes used on pizza". A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, my !vote is based on the scholarly and research articles on pizza cheese I referenced, which are not incorporated into the article as of yet.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 22:33, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Are we...are we seriously discussing the notability of this product? It's quite clear from the picture, let alone the copious sources, that this is its own product. Sure, its main use is on pizza, but it's made and sold separately and has its own special process of being made that is unrelated to how the pizza is made using the finished product of this. Silver seren^C 21:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually seren, we are only really discussing whether it is independently notable of the various articles we have on cheese and pizza since most people above who aren't arguing keep are supporting a redirect or merge. The "picture" is of provel cheese, which has its own article and does not prove any independent notability for "pizza cheese" at all. Any other argument you give can be easily dismissed by noting any article where it would be just as suitably covered. We have an article for processed cheese, cheese analogues, mozzarella, provel, provolone, gouda cheese, goat cheese, parmesan, feta and pretty much any other cheese that is ever used on a pizza. Even as a list this article wouldn't make a whole lot of sense because it would basically be a smaller duplicate of list of cheeses.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:24, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Pizza. If I was looking for information about pizza cheese, I'd assume that pizza was the place to look. Dori ☾Talk ☯ Contribs☽ 23:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Which is why bullet should be merged to firearm, obviously.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 00:35, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - You must be joking to think that's a reasonable comparison.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm not joking. I can come up with 1000s of similar examples if you wish. Merge Hot dog bun into Hot dog (both already use a very similar photo!), Hockey puck into Ice hockey, and certainly Nucleon into Atomic nucleus--the former is only used in the latter!. Every such merge would be a plausibly different way to structure the project, but doesn't mean deletion is warranted or necessary. I draw the line not based on personal whim, but on sourcing. When scientific articles exist such as Effect of Type of Concentrated Sweet Cream Buttermilk on the Manufacture, Yield, and Functionality of Pizza Cheese, and Chemically-acidified pizza cheese production and functionality (presented at a cheese symposium, not a pizza symposium) I conclude that pizza cheese is an item that can merit individual coverage.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 02:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - Your comparison would make sense if we were talking about merging Target shooting bullet with Bullet. "Pizza cheese" is not a kind of cheese, it is a use of cheese, mixture of cheeses, fake cheese, etc. depending on who is talking. Yes, we have a Cheese article and articles on various varieties of cheese. This is a use of cheese of whatever variety. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Of course, generally we shouldn't give much attention to such comparisons, but these are really bad comparisons. Pizza cheese is a generalized and undefined subject that overlaps with well over a dozen articles. I would challenge Milo to point to how any of his examples face a similar problem.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Pizza cheese is not just whatever you think it is; we have published journal articles on that subject, we don't need to rest on the random beliefs of wikipedia editors. Its not just a "use" of cheese like cheeseburger cheese. Its a highly developed product of an industry hellbent on maximizing profit using low cost cheese formulations.[19][20] Educate yourselves people; let's not repeat Richard Denner over and over. The fact that some variation in definition exists does not make the subject non-notable.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 03:53, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Dude, it's cheese. It can be processed cheese, certainly, and we have an article for processed cheese that would not be particularly difficult to expand with information about how processed cheese is made for pizza. We could also add how they process mozzarella for use in pizza in either the article on mozzarella or the article on pizza. What we cannot do is detail the history of the bullet in an article that covers the entire history of firearms, which includes many things that do not use bullets. Saying this page should be a redirect doesn't mean the cheese used for pizza isn't notable, just that we have no compelling reason to have a separate article about it when we can detail these facts on any of the various cheeses that are used in pizza, the articles on pizza, or general articles on cheese that are related.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:38, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        
        As I stated above those articles and journals are about mozzarella, cheese analogues and processed cheese and use the term as a synonym. They are not about the actual subject of pizza cheese. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:44, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done with you pizza cheese heathens. I can't argue for 7 days non-stop about whether pizza cheese is independently notable as shown by myriad sources. Famous Evil Deletionist Tarc actually !voted to keep above, so I don't think I can say any more.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 04:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I came here looking for an article on pizza cheese and found this very useful and well sourced. Mathieas (talk) 04:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmmm . . . . [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28]. I have a sneaking suspicion that you did not come here because you were looking up pizza cheese.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:20, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Many sources have been removed from the article. They are currently located on the article's talk page here. Northamerica1000^(talk) 08:38, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply - many unrelated links have been challenged and removed as part of WP:BRD. They are not and never were "sources". You need to stop adding them back in and discuss this on the talk page. Adding them back in as inline citations is not the right way to go about this. Wait for the AfD to be completed then discuss it on the talk page as recommended in the linked essay above. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the future, when blanket-removing sources from articles please at least consider placing a notice on the AfD discussion about their removal, and also consider placing them on an article's talk page. That way, others won't have to do it for you. Thank you for your consideration. Northamerica1000^(talk) 09:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to pizza Notability concerns aside, the content at its current stage just makes more sense as a part of the parent article, where information about this important component of the dish is currently lacking. Sandstein 12:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/Question Absolutely nothing wrong with the contents of the article, but don't understand why some are arguing that it should have it's own article. Would moving it to its own section on Pizza really make pizza too big? Is pizza cheese a significant topic independent of Pizza? OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.