Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pauline Anna Strom

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect to Ambient music. I'm very sympathetic to the idea of including niche and minority musicians and other artists. However WP:MUS requires that subjects must have ".... been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself" The references as presently provided do not include multiple, non-trivial sources. The suggestion about a redirect is useful as it will both preserve what is here, and guide the reader who uses the artist's name as a search term. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 14:35, 18 January 2017 (UTC) .

Pauline Anna Strom

Pauline Anna Strom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Delete. WP:BLP, based entirely on blogs with no evidence of reliable source coverage in media shown at all, of a musician with no strong claim of notability per WP:NMUSIC. As always, Wikipedia is not a place where any musician is automatically entitled to have an article just because she can be verified as existing; the article has to document specific achievements that satisfy NMUSIC and are referenced to real reliable source coverage. Bearcat (talk) 23:26, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Delete. WP:BLP, The two sources listed are blogs and research gives no reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JuliaCameron (talk • contribs) 00:12, 4 January 2017 (UTC) JuliaCameron (talk) 00:14, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

KEEP, First of all I'd like to say that I am confident that she is a notable musician. She is in a niche as the Avant-garde music is something that obviously doesn't have the same following as other musical genres. Dark ambient, New-age music and other wired and wonderful music does have a following and the artists may not be as popular as others in other genres. Pauline Anna Strom has a strong following. She is actually a pioneer. As a blind female who has entered the new age field and had an output as she did is a feat. She has been recognized for that. She has also contributed to the Electronic Musician magazine multiple times with various articles. Karl Twist (talk) 06:17, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Comment, I have improved the article from this to this, and I'm not done yet. This is another example of a notable musician who has had an article hastily created about her. While I applaud the creation of articles such as this, I do wish before the article is created, the creator has a couple more refs and comes back to improve from time to time. I can see the creator, Christinavantzou has contributed well to the Daphne Oram article as well. Good work there. Thanks. Karl Twist (talk) 06:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

The sourcing you've added so far isn't strong enough; you're relying far too strongly on the existence of her material in online record stores (and illegal Russian music stores that skirt actual copyright issues, at that), namechecks of her existence in coverage of other things or people that aren't her, and content where she was the author and not the subject. Bearcat (talk) 17:54, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Wrong, see my post 06:20, 7 January 2017. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 08:55, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Do Not Delete She is a notable musician who has been a contributor to many magazines. very influential and should be a part of the encyclopedia. BurritoSlayer (talk) 21:03, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

A person gets a Wikipedia article by being the subject of coverage in magazines, not by being the bylined author of magazine articles about other things. And NMUSIC is not passed just by asserting that someone is influential and notable and important — it's passed by reliably sourcing their influence and notability and importance to media coverage about them — which the "improvement" that's taken place so far isn't showing, because it's still overly reliant on illegal Russian MP3-download sites and blogs and directories. Bearcat (talk) 17:54, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Actually Bearcat, She has been the subject in magazines. BurritoSlayer has merely added that she is also a contributor to magazines such as Electronic Musician, some are technical articles, such as published articles in hi-fi or musician magazines. Often these contributors are paid. Quote: "because it's still overly reliant on illegal Russian MP3-download sites and blogs and directories.". There are only 2 sites that are Russian and you are way off on your assertion. Karl Twist (talk) 06:20, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

If she's been the subject of coverage in magazines, then kindly show some. What the article shows so far is that she's been the subject of blog posts and the author of magazine articles, neither of which is what it takes. And per our reliable sourcing rules, even just two illegal Russian MP3 download sites in the referencing pool is still two illegal Russian MP3 download sites too many, so I'm way not off on my "assertion". Bearcat (talk) 15:30, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

She has been in various published-paper magazines that include Electronic Musician, Eurock, New Age Journal, and others. Also online magazines The Attic, and others. There's And a couple of other books that have chapters devoted to her. She also contributed to musician mags that incl., Electronic Musician. Profile in books such as John Schaefer's excellent book, New Sounds: A Listener's Guide to New Music. The 2 so-called illegal Russian sites are not props for the article and one of them has ref that can replace the Russian one as it is with the other. The article is not dependant on "blog posts" either. Please be a bit more accurate. Similarly with the Gary Richard Arnold deletion discussion, I believe you're way off. Also with this article like Arnold's, if this gets deleted then that's another important California-related article that is going to be lost. Valuable notable info that can be of great help and interest to researchers is what this is. Karl Twist (talk) 04:09, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:59, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 04:30, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Delete - I'm sorry to say the article does not establish notability under the criteria of WP:MUSIC. The albums are all self-released and not on a major label and do not appear to have charted. No mention of any significant touring. While some of the sources falls into the WP:RS bracket it crucially does not establish any notability. Much of it is linked to the MGMT mixtape appearance of "Morning Splendour" - but notability is not inherited. As she has since retired from music, it makes the emergence of further sources unlikely. Regretfully, as I did enjoy listening to her music. Karst (talk) 10:58, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Replying to your 10:58, 10 January 2017 post Karst. Quote:, "The albums are all self-released and not on a major label" - - Her first album Trans-Millenia Consort wasn't self-released. In 1982, she had signed with an outfit called Ether Ship Productions, a production co. in California that evolved out of a performing group. This was the outfit that was to produce her recordings. The first product was herTrans-Millenia Consort debut album, released on Ether Ship Records Cat no. AR3289. The producer for that record was Lemon DeGeorge, and executive producer overseeing the project was the amazing Willard Van de Bogart. The records were manufactured / pressed by Arkay Records in San Jose.[1], South East Asian Review, The Universe on Ketamine: A personal journal documenting ketamine mindscapes by Willard G. Van De Bogart Page 7, and see Discogs. I'd say that after her first 3 LPs, the following ones would have been self-released with the exception of the re-release on Sainty Muffin etc.
Quote: - "Much of it is linked to the MGMT mixtape appearance of "Morning Splendour" - but notability is not inherited" - - I disagree. There's not much linked to the MGMT mixtape. Yes "Morning Splendor" appears on the 2LP album Late Night Tales: MGMT and there's a couple links to that and one other. That's not "most", that's minority!
Quote: - "As she has since retired from music, it makes the emergence of further sources unlikely" - - Well, we wouldn't want to apply that kind of reason to J. D. Salinger or Sylvester Stewart would we? I believe that her album is an underground classic. She is already recognized in her unique field, and people will discover this more and more. She is notable as she is now. But she will have more written about her as it's happening now. Even if that were not to happen, she still is notable. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 08:31, 12 January 2017 (UTC) PS: It's quite likely that she has been an influence on experimental musicians such as Áine O’Dwyer etc. Karl Twist (talk) 08:36, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Admin please note:, I have placed Bearcat's 17:42, 11 January 2017 post below here as it was incorrectly placed in that section after it was closed and new section relisted by King of Hearts on 03:59, 10 January 2017. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 03:09, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Once again, you're completely missing what's being said. We are looking for substantive coverage about her, not just nominal namechecks of her existence — but of the two Electronic Musician citations present here, both namecheck her as the author of content in the magazine and not as the subject of content in the magazine. The Quietus, BMA Magazine and NME each just namecheck her existence a single time within a review of some other unrelated artist's work, and are not about her. New Age Journal blurbingly namechecks her existence in a newsbriefs column, while not being substantive. Eurock is not being cited at all; The Attic is a blog, and not a notable magazine that can assist passage of WP:GNG at all. And what else have we got for sourcing here? Radio Free Midwich: WordPress blog. Wunderfrontier: Blogspot blog. Tiny Mix Tapes: blog. Earth Portals: unreliable fansite of an unrelated band, self-published by a random non-notable non-journalist. South East Asian Review: namechecks her existence in an essay written by a direct collaborator of hers, thus failing the independence requirement. Sonic Hits: PR site, unable to demonstrate notability. Discogs.com: directory site, unable to aid notability. And on and so forth — the depth of reliable source coverage needed to make her notable simply is not being shown. As at Gary Richard Arnold, I am evaluating the sources correctly, and you're the one who fails to understand what constitutes a valid source and what doesn't. Bearcat (talk) 17:42, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Replying to Bearcat's 17:42, 11 January 2017 post. Quote: - "Once again, you're completely missing what's being said. We are looking for substantive coverage about her, not just nominal namechecks of her existence — but of the two Electronic Musician citations present here, both namecheck her as the author of content in the magazine and not as the subject of content in the magazine." - I'm not completely missing anything. But it seems that you are. Yes she has had articles posted in the Electronic Musician magazine. I've included 2 of the technical articles she wrote for the magazine. One in May 1986 and one for another time. What you have neglected to mention is that she was also interviewed for an article published in the magazine. June 1985. She was also interviewed in 1986, published in Eurock magazine.
Quote: - "The Attic is a blog, and not a notable magazine that can assist passage of WP:GNG" -- Excuse me, The Attic which have her album Plot Zero a 5 star rating is not a blog! It is an online music magazine that publishes articles about international artists. It organizes musical events as well. Events covered in Google News etc. It also organized the very first Outernational Days festival . There's an article about the fest on The Wire, here. As far as I know, Blogs don't organize festivals that have international artists unless they have become self aware.
Quote: - - "Sonic Hits: PR site, unable to demonstrate notability. Discogs.com: directory site, unable to aid notability" - - They're not there to demonstrate notability. They are there to show and make it easy to follow her recordings etc. and catalogue, which by the way is contained in John Schaefer's excellent book, New Sounds: A Listener's Guide to New Music which gives her discography, profile and background. Unfortunately Google Books is only showing part of it.
Quote: - "As at Gary Richard Arnold, I am evaluating the sources correctly" - - Like the Gary Richard Arnold deletion, you neglected to address very important key points and overlooked obvious points. Pauline Anna Strom is not Vangelis and she is not Mike Oldfield. But she is notable. Her music is much more niche that that and she is in a genre that has a narrower but still strong following. Yes the music is way out. BTW: Have you ever picked up a music reference book where only mainstream artists like The Eagles and The Rolling Stones are covered. There are 8 pages devoted to The Rolling Stones and a only page and a half (2 ifg you're lucky) devoted to Jimi Hendrix. Half a page devoted to Blood Sweat & Tears and where's Arthur Lee????? Taking the aim and blast approach pushes Wikipedia towards that! Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 09:35, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

FFS. For starters, as I've already pointed out, articles which a person wrote in a magazine do absolutely jack squat to assist in demonstrating notability — a person has to be the subject of a source, not its author, for that source to assist in demonstrating passage of GNG. The Electronic Musician articles do not assist her notability at all, because a person gets a Wikipedia article by being the subject of media coverage written by other people, and not by being the author of media coverage about other subjects. Secondly, the difference between an "online magazine" and a "blog", for our purposes, is not determined by what the publication calls itself — it's determined by variables such as the presence or absence of a named masthead of editorial contributors so that we know who's actually writing the content. A publication that does not have that, as The Attic does not if you actually peruse its actual website, does not get over our RS rules just by calling itself a "magazine". We determine what is or isn't a reliable source by evaluating the publication against our criteria — and The Attic does not pass them. Thirdly, you then dismiss the issue with all of the other sources as "not there to demonstrate notability" — but if they're "not there to demonstrate notability", and no other source in the article demonstrates notability, then she's absolutely nowhere on the "is notable" scale — because notability is determined by the quality of sourcing that can or cannot be provided to support it. And yet again, I did not "neglect" to address any "important key points" and I did not "overlook" obvious points: every single thing I said in that discussion was exactly correct and I didn't miss a single solitary thing about anything whatsoever. Bearcat (talk) 00:32, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Replying to Bearcat's 00:32, 15 January 2017 post. OK Bearcat, I'll try this again. Quote: - - "FFS. For starters, as I've already pointed out, articles which a person wrote in a magazine do absolutely jack squat to assist in demonstrating notability ". - - Yes I am aware of this and I have said it previously. I was merely pointing out that Strom has contributed technical articles to magazines such as Electronic Musician to give an idea of her journalistic, no ...journalistic is not the correct term. A Technical article contributor would be the better description. The fact that she was blind and contributed to those magazines gives an idea of her breadth. That's not to give props to her notability. I'm trying to indicate what else is out there. As a blind musician who has technical knowledge, she will have been publications that would be accessed by education and other study groups. She has been covered in articles written by others, Electronic Musician that she was also interviewed for an article published in Electronic Musician, June 1985, and Eurock, Issue #31 (11/86), and others, also John Schaefer's excellent book, New Sounds: A Listener's Guide to New Music, which is an invaluable tool.
Quote: - "Secondly, the difference between an "online magazine" and a "blog", for our purposes, is not determined by what the publication calls itself" .... "A publication that does not have that, as The Attic does not if you actually peruse its actual website" - - Well, notable media sources all in Google News refer to The Attic as a magazine. Your original attempt to merely pass it off as a blog was grossly inaccurate in how it was placed. The media sources that refer to The Attic as a magazine, and found in Google Groups include ..... Dilema veche - * and RomaniaLibera.ro - *. Also British pop culture magazine online music magazine, The Quietus - * and the British avant-garde music magazine, The Wire - *. There's quite a few others in Google News that refer to The Attic as a magazine and a media source. Sorry but I choose to go with those media sources say rather than what you suggest. Again, Pauline Anna Strom's genre or sub-genre is a narrower field. It takes a bit more time to sift though and research. Already I have determined that she is notable! And I can see one of her albums, possibly two having articles of their own.
Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 05:55, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

• Note to Karst - Attn: Karst, please do not play around with the posts. If someone misses the closure of a section then that's unfortunate, as per: "Please add new comments below this notice". Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 08:45, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

• Note to closing admin, I believe this article to be notable. If by chance during the process of final evaluation (whenever that may be), it is determined by the person closing this Afd that the article at the present time in it's present state cannot be kept, I would ask that it be redirected to something like Ambient music. This could be done, ensuring the page history is intact so that when the content of the page is restored, we have the history that goes back to the original creation date. Of course I hope that it doesn't come to this as I believe Pauline Anna Strom is notable as she is. With confidence, I have no doubt in my mind that with the interest in Ambient and (Whatever actual genre) space-type music and artists, there will be more articles on her published by various sources. I have seen indications of this. That time, I have no doubt that even the most over-zealous, Wikipedia contributor or culler will not go for deletion. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 06:19, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.