Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Donnelly (Irish footballer)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Most of the problem here was the criteria for NFOOTBALL but this isn't the place for that discussion, had he met GNG the outcome may have been different J04n(talk page) 17:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Donnelly (Irish footballer)[edit]

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Cannot find any evidence of him playing in a professional league (Irish league is not professional). Cannot find any sources or references. Echetus Xe 14:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Echetus Xe 14:20, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 14:26, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep over 100 games at the top flight of Irish football and a winners medal at the European U-19 makes him notable. MLA (talk) 15:51, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Few WP:ATH policies are more totally screwed up than WP:FOOTBALL. Because of the ridiculous "fully professional league" focus, it includes players from extremely minor American professional leagues, and excludes those from those nations where the top league isn't fully pro. Here's the list of those leagues [1]-- if you're Irish, Welsh, New Zealander, Chilean, or another of the WikiProject's pariah states, the message is "get lost, we don't want your kind". On the other hand, if you played one game in USL Second Division for the Albuquerque Geckos, it's "Oh, a superstar, can I have your autograph?". Silly in the extreme, it includes many minor players and bars many major ones. I think that Donnelly would probably be notable, except that he made the mistake of staying in Ireland. Mandsford 19:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I'd second that. Teams from the 10th level of English football (that's 6 below the professional leagues) as well as some from even further down the chain are apparently notable yet players from the top league of Ireland don't qualify as notable according to this bizarre approach. Glad to see Mandsford take a stand. MLA (talk) 21:45, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment but players aren't notable for playing in the 10th tier. They would have played at a fully-professional level and dropped down the leagues. Otherwise, I'd advise nominating them for deletion. --Jimbo^[online] 22:01, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Except he didn't stay in Ireland. He was at the English professional club Leeds United as a youngster, but failed to break into the first team there. The reality is that any Irish player of a reasonable standard moves to England at some point in their career. I would also like to know who these "major" players are who are not covered by the WP:NSPORTS criteria. If anything, they are too lax. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:13, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. -- JN 466 23:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. -- JN 466 23:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:05, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Just because a guideline is silly (and I completely disagree with that interpretation of NSPORT) in no way invalidates the guideline. NSPORT was established by a thorough consensus and I see no reason to go against it. Not having played in a fully professional league, this player fails NSPORT, and from what I can tell, he does not meet WP:GNG either. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, NSPORT isn't silly, just parts of it. The idea of automatic inclusion of particular players makes sense, in that many of the people who qualify have been consistently recognized in encyclopedias on the sports that they play in. For the most part, the fans know the difference between big league competition and bush league. Even WP:NHOCKEY, which throws in some players from the minor AHL, has a rationale for doing it, having a 100 game threshhold, and taking into account that the NHL had only six teams for many years. The policy created by the soccer fans, on the other hand, is "in a league of its own". I think the big problem is that a list of fully professional leagues, made as a helpful guide, has been seriously misunderstood as a directive to bar players from the leagues of certain nations, and to include lesser level players of other nations. I think it's New Zealand where the national league is 93% professional, but not fully professional, buh-bye. I don't expect any single individual to know the relative level of competition of all of the leagues in the world, or the salary structure; and the soccer fans don't have the benefit of what would be a large player register, like we have for baseball and American football and such. But to me, the measure of a league or a division would be how many players it sends to its country's national team. I'm sure that the soccer policy will catch up to those of other sports, one of these days. Mandsford 21:37, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That suggestion wouldn't work. The majority of the Faroe Islands national football team players are drawn from the Faroese league, but nobody would seriously claim that playing in the Faroese league makes a player notable. It is also worth noting that WP:NHOCKEY allows all players from the fully professional leagues in other countries (Russia, Finland, Sweden), which is in line with the football policy. The 100 game requirement only applies to the relatively minor leagues (North American minor leagues or the Swedish second division). There is no such clear distinction in football between minor and major league. For example, the second tier of English football (Football League Championship) ranks ninth in total attendance in all sports in the whole world, ahead of the top divisions in France and Italy. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:41, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But let's look at the other end of the extreme examples. You chose one extreme, the Faeroe Islands, which don't even have 50,000 people, to illustrate your point. Going the other way, does it make sense to apply that same reasoning to the Republic of Ireland, with more than 4,000,000? And when you throw in Northern Ireland, more than 6 million? Or to New Zealand, with 4.4 million? Clearly, the soccer policy isn't going to change, because there are too many in that particular project who think it's just fine. My suggestion wouldn't work, but I have a feeling that nobody else's suggestion would work either. Still, this isn't a discussion on changing that policy. For Mr. Donnelly, I'll simply say to people, look at the article about the League of Ireland and decide for yourselves whether it's semi-pro, or whether Donnelly's 100 games there weren't as a fully professional player. Mandsford 14:41, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - the subject fails the WP:NFOOTBALL as he has only played in a semi-professional league, and there no indication he meets the general notability guidelines or made any notable achievements in his career. —BETTIA— ^talk 09:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.