Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pamela Lincoln

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (Weak) I'm closing this because its high time it got closed. There's a weak consensus to keep this article; at worst the contents are at least cited to reliable sources even if the subjects notability is still debatable. No prejudice against a 2nd nomination in the future if an editor feels strongly that the sources are insufficient. Sam Walton (talk) 09:35, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pamela Lincoln[edit]

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Delete: completely and thoroughly non-notable minor actress. No nexus to meet notability threshold. Quis separabit? 01:23, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Her sparse credits don't satisfy NACTOR. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 15:01, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete lack of enough significant roles to be notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:34, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What do the editors here think of sources like Boca Raton News, Lakeland Ledger and Herald Tribune (same news as first)? Lourdes 04:26, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Small city papers are RS. If the subject is a local, they count somewhat less towards notability. Otherwise, these articles are good sources.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:34, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These are nationally syndicated columns from columnists like Steven H. Scheuer and Dick Kleiner that are published in many newspapers across the United States including the local newspapers listed here. Cunard (talk) 05:44, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: relisting so new sources can be reviewed Sarahj2107 (talk) 09:25, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sarahj2107 (talk) 09:25, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. SST flyer 12:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting editors again for a quick review of the sources I've listed... Lourdes 10:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 23:16, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Again requesting editors to give a quick look to the sources I've placed. Lourdes 05:20, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Those two articles don't satisfy WP:GNG. I mean, there's not a lot we can glean from them that isn't related to her soap opera role. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks Clarityfiend. But GNG is not what I'm referring to. I want views on NACTOR, which mentions that an actor may be notable if the actor "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows". This full page report on Pamela Lincoln by Ottawa Journal and the reports I've placed above confirm that she has had significant roles in serials like Love of Life and The Doctors etc. What would you say? Lourdes 11:52, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Requesting editors to provide their comments on whether the subject qualifies on NACTOR (An actor may be notable if the actor "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows") based on the above news reports which confirm that the actress has had such significant roles. Lourdes 12:31, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
keep A minor actress with very minor mentions Here, for example, is a bit that ran in ght New York Times as a correction, "A picture caption in Weekend on Friday with a Critic's Choice article about a tribute to Vincent Price at the Film Forum misidentified a woman shown with Mr. Price in a scene from "The Tingler," because of incorrect information provided by the theater. She was Pamela Lincoln, not Judith Evelyn." NYTimes , 23 August 1994. Here, ('Tingler' Sellout at Pilgrim As Kids Come A-Screaming, Adams, Marjory. Daily Boston Globe [Boston, Mass] 02 Sep 1959) in an article form when that film was new, in the genre "What's the matter with Kids Today" she is listed as one of the 5 actors with "leading rolls in The Tingler, which, since it does continue to play art houses and in film retrospectives of the genre, is a notable film. so, she does seem to squeak past WP:NACTOR. E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep After multiple requests to editors to comment on whether the source I have added qualify on NACTOR, none of the delete editors have come back with their comments (Clarityfiend did come back on GNG issues. Lourdes 02:13, 9 November 2016 (UTC)). I'm going for keep here as the sources I've listed and E.M.Gregory's details take the actress a bit above NACTOR. There is a good possibility of sources being available to later qualify the lady on BASIC or even GNG. We should keep this article with no prejudice against a renomination next year if no further sources can be added in the coming few months. Thanks. Lourdes 08:20, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and then Redirect to Darryl Hickman as there's no actual independent notability here and the listed filmography states it all, there's only a few works but nothing substantial enough for an actually better article. SwisterTwister talk 04:11, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SwisterTwister, do you think the subject qualifies on NACTOR (rather than GNG which you seem to be referring to)? If no, do please enumerate why? Thanks. Lourdes 09:05, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Scheuer, Steven H. (1977-02-06). "Pamela Lincoln super organized". Boca Raton News. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
  The article notes:
  
  Pamela Lincoln, the lovely Felicia Flemming Lamont in Love of Life (CBS), is a super-organized person; and, with her schedule, she has to be.
  In addition to her regular role in the popular daytime serial, she runs her Manhattan apartment, sees to the nees of her two sons and is a loving and understanding wife to her busy husband, actor-producer-writer Darryl Hickman. Pamela is a list-maker and believes in following a daily schedule in order to have things run as smoothly as possible.
  Even when Pamela took a hiatus from acting to raise her children (that was from 1962 to 1970), she couldn't simply join the brigade of mothers in Central Park. Pamela went back to college for a few courses, worked part-time as an artistic consultant with a designer and tended to her motherly and wifely chores, as well.
  Incidentally, the actress thinks New York is a great place to raise kids, contrary to some thinking. She says it's easier for children to get around due to the fabulously convenient transparent system and adds there are so many things to do for youngsters growing up in New York. Her two boys, Damien and Justin, are now 16 and 11 respectively and they'd be inclined to agree with Mom.
2. Kleiner, Dick (1976-07-23). "Soap opera presents double problem". El Paso Herald-Post. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
  The article notes:
  
  When you're connected with a soap opera, you don't get much time off. When both you and your spouse are connected with the same soap, the problem is doubled. But, somehow, Darryl Hickman and his wife, Pamela Lincoln, managed it. He's the executive producer of CBS' long-running Love of Life, and she's one of the stars of the show. It's a New York-based operation, but they got some time off together to come back to Hollywood, where she was born and he was once a top-ranking child star.
  ...
  Darryl and Pamela have made their home in New York since 1983 and they love it. There is a little nostalgia for Los Angeles, but not much. The Hickmans and their two sons — Damien is 17 and Justin is 10 — are confirmed New Yorkers now.
  ....
  Pamela grew up in Beverly Hills, the daughter of a screenwriter. She says she took the name Lincoln because she believes she's a descendant of Abraham Lincoln — "That's where I get my height," she says.
  She didn't act for about eight years, when her two sons were young and needed her at home. But now she's back in it and is one of the mainstays of the hit soap opera.
  They do a lot of things together in New York, and have plans for more. For several years, they had a little theater in a New York church and worked together in the productions.
  Currently, they have a company together, involved in various TV projects and, again, it is something they work on as a team.
3. Reed, Jon-Michael (1977-06-27). "Dying On Soaps Can Be Fun All The Way To The Grave". Lakeland Ledger. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
  The article notes:
  
  Dying on a soap opera can be a laughing matter, at least for the performer involved.
  Pamela Lincoln "died" as Felicia Lamont on Love of Life a few weeks ago and it was chaotic fun all the way to the grave.
  ...
  The actress, who is also an off-Broadway producer, will soon be on her way to California where she'll join her husband, Darryl Hickman, who is producing the summer night-time series, A Year at the Top for Norman Lear's production company. But she'll carry fond "LOL" memories with her: "It was a lovely funeral. I departed with the two men in Felicia's life crying over her casket. What more could a corpse want?"
4. Quirk, Lawrence J. (2000). Bob Hope: The Road Well Traveled. New York: Hal Leonard Corporation. pp. 90–91. ISBN 1557834504. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
  The book notes on page 90 and page 91:
  One of those who observed the Hopes' home life first-hand was Pamela Lincoln, now a well-known acting coach who runs an acting school and coaches TV reporters and anchors. She and Linda hope were close friends when they were in their teens and early twenties, and she has recalled the young Linda as "extremely bright, with a wonderful sense of humor — a genuinely kind person." She recalls that Linda gave Pamela's son Damier "a wonderful baby shower." The daughter of actress Verna Hillie and the late Frank Gill, who was a comedy writer for Hope, Pamela Lincoln is a great admirer of Dolores Hope. ...
5. Reed, Jon-Michael (1977-06-06). "Tune in Tomorrow". Republican & Herald. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
  The article notes:
  
  Pamela Lincoln (Felicia Lamont on Love of Life) is understudying the female lead in the Broadway drama, The Shadow Box. The Pulitzer Prize-winning play deals with a gruop of terminally ill people and how they cope with imminent death. It's a subject Pamela may have to deal with very soon in her serial role.
6. Scheuer, Steven H. (1977-06-09). "Soaps. Death scenes written for characters". Denton Record-Chronicle. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
  The article notes:
  
  Also playing her part to the death, Pamela Lincoln just this week departed her role as Felicia Flemming Lamont in Love of Life (CBS). The writers considerately set the expiration date for her character on the show. What necessitated the drastic measure was Pam's desire to return to stage acting on a fulltime basis. She is currently understudying two major roles in the Pulitzer Prize-winning Broadway play, Shadow Box.
7. Crosby, Joan (1977-09-29). "Ex-child actor busy in adult behind-camera work". El Paso Herald-Post. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
  The article notes:
  
  Just about the time Darryl says he was feeling hemmed in by producing the soap, he got a call from Normal Lear (this was last October) saying he wanted him to be a producer of a new series. Darryl resigned his job and moved back to the coast. His wife, actress Pamela Lincoln, who has a role in Love of Life, was allowed to die in the series so she could join him. But in a bit of irony, she was asked to join The Doctors and now she flies back and forth so she can have her job and her husband, too. Their two sons are presently in camp in Maine, so Darryl says he feels uprooted but is glad that he is back in Hollywood, where he and his brother Dwayne, grew up.
8. Articles about her marriage:
  1. "Actress Giving Up Career for Marriage". Sedalia Democrat. Associated Press. 1959-11-30. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
    The article notes:
    
    Actress Pamela Lincoln is giving up her career to concentrate on being Mrs. Darryl Hickman.
    Miss Lincoln, 22, made the announcement after her marriage to the 28-year-old actor in a Hollywood church Saturday. The couple met last year in Los Angeles while both were appearing in a stage show.
    Hickman's younger brother, Dwayne, who is television's Dobie Gillis, was best man.
    The bridgeroom is currently appearing in the TV series, Texas John Slaughter.
    It was the first marriage for both he and his bride.
  2. "Darryl Hickman To Wed Actress". The Times of Northwest Indiana. Associated Press. 1959-09-01. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
    The article notes:
    
    Film and TV actor Darryl Hickman and Actress Pamela Lincoln plan to marry Nov. 28.
    They took out a marriage license Thursday.
    The couple said the wedding will be at the Immaculate Church in Beverly Hills. Hickman's brother, Dwayne, also an actor, will be best man.
    Hickman is 28; Miss Lincoln, 22.
  3. "Medford Mail Tribune article". Mail Tribune. United Press International. 1959-11-30. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
    The article notes:
    
    Actor Darryl Hickman and actress Pamela Lincoln were married Saturday in ceremonies at the Immaculate Heart of Mary church.
  4. "Film Pair to Marry". The Herald-Mail. 1959-11-14. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
    The article note:
    Television and film actor Darryl Hickman, 28, and actress Pamela Lincoln, 22, hold the marriage license they got yesterday in Los Angeles. They met 15 months ago while appearing in a Hollywood little theater group play. They plan a Nov. 28 wedding.
  5. "The Daily News-Texan article". The Daily News-Texan. Grand Prairie, Texas. United Press International. 1959-11-19. Archived from the original on 2016-11-13. Retrieved 2016-11-13.
    The article notes:
    
    Actor Darryl Hickman, 28, and actress Pamela Lincoln, 22, took out a marriage license Thursday and said they would be married Nov. 28.
    The couple said they met and became engaged during the filming of a horror movie, The Tingler.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Pamela Lincoln to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 05:44, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Literally everything from above is interviewed information such as "Pamela Lincoln....is a super-organized person; and, with her schedule, she has to be", "Pamela says", "Pamela thinks", "Pamela Lincoln is [ended] her career to get married....", and the September 1977 article is literally a 2-time mention for being her husband's spouse, so it's not actual independent or focused coverage, and the ones above those (that also happen to be 1977) are also all trivial; therefore when the best is apparently literally this, it shows the bareness and, as it is, she's not even satisfying the applicable actors notability considering the works in her career were so trivial.

Also, although such trivial information is expected when it comes to such trivial matters and subjects, that's not saying at all that we should literally become a webhost for trivial information, therefore there's enough suggesting, as it is in these sources, to suggest there is in fact no actual substance. As it is, the Delete votes above have emphasized the bareness of not satisfying the actors notability, and that's self-explanatory and sufficient for deletion. Therefore, if we're actually considering this is enough, it's simply cosmetic-filling the actual concerns, not taking care and fixing them. SwisterTwister talk 05:58, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The first and second sources I listed above from the Boca Raton News and the El Paso Herald-Post provide significant coverage of the subject. I listed the other sources because they contain biographical material that can be used to expand the article. And from Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria: "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." She also passes WP:NACTOR for her significant roles in The Tingler and Love of Life. Cunard (talk) 06:06, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actors notability explicitly states the multiple significant works are needed, in this case the first work was only for 3 years and everything else is simply trivial and not lasting long at all; also, as mentioned above, it never matters who published what as long as the contents themselves were still interviewed quotes about what her hobbies and tasks are at home, and that itself would suggest the literal bareness and no-independence if it's literally only that. :WP:BASIC means nothing if any applicable notability such as Actors Notability is not satisfied, given her works were only 1 major work and trivial. The comments above emphasized this and there's nothing else suggesting they meant anything else. Like with the WP:GNG, it means nothing if the article simply serves as trivia or advertising, something of which is emboldened in Wikipedia policy to not have. SwisterTwister talk 06:17, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep per WP:BASIC, which states in part, "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". The combined sources listed above meet this threshold. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 19:03, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I suggestthat it harms the case for notability when articles such as those in point 8 of the references above are used to defend it; they are exactly what is meant by notices, rather than substantial coverage. DGG ( talk ) 01:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is why I combined all the articles about her marriage in point 8. The sources about her marriage do not by themselves establish notability. If they were all that existed, I would support deletion.
WP:BASIC says, "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". That her marriage was covered in the Associated Press and United Press International helps establish that she is a public person. The marriage sources when combined with the other sources presented here establish she is notable.
Cunard (talk) 01:54, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - This itself was only coverage for having married an actor, therefore the coverage itself is not substantial since it simply focuses with one thing, therefore it's not significant for notability; also, what is relevant here is actors notability and she's not satisfying it, therefore it's best to delete it since there's nothing suggesting an otherwise better article, and WP:BASIC and WP:GNG are not applicable when WP:NOT applies, which in this case is basically an entertainment gossip "article". Simply compiling a few other sources that happen to mention the marriage and then literally listing her family, which is obviously not independent since she supplied it herself, therefore that is not a basis for notability. with this, as I noted above, not only not satisfying Actors Notability, but the first comments of Keep stated themselves "a minor actress with minor roles" hence not significant. SwisterTwister talk 03:07, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate comment by Swister, coverage is NOT confined to "having married and actor." I think sources brought by User:Cunard and others suffice to support notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:48, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep WP:GNG is understood to require two good sources to confirm that a topic is not a hoax and therefore contributes to the sum of human knowledge. Being reliable is far more important to WP:GNG than audience, which is not even a parameter for WP:GNG. Unscintillating (talk) 02:37, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - WP:GNG means nothing when WP:NOT in fact applies, and the fact this woman is simply known for Darryl and her relationship with him and the sources themselves show this, there's literally nothing to suggest better, especially since she's not actually notable as an actress. Being a hoax or anything else hoax-focused is not applicable here so it's not relevant, and also "contributes to....human knowledge" is also not applicable when she's not a major actress as it is, but in fact the only best known as Darryl's wife (hence her career has not continued after that, and the coverage above itself was when her family life started, not after). SwisterTwister talk 06:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"She's not a major actress as it is, but in fact the only best known as Darryl's wife (hence her career has not continued after that, and the coverage above itself was when her family life started, not after" Your statement is not supported by the sources. Pamela Lincoln's roles in Love of Life, her advent into the Pulitzer Prize winning play The Shadow Box, her role as an off-Broadway show producer, are all confirmed and covered by reliable sources:

"In addition to her regular role in the popular daytime serial," Ottawa Journal story having a heading "Pam Lincoln Hitting On All Cylinder"
"Pamela Lincoln (Felicia Lamont on Love of Life) is understudying the female lead in the Broadway drama, The Shadow Box. The Pulitzer Prize-winning play deals with a gruop of terminally ill people and how they cope with imminent death. It's a subject Pamela may have to deal with very soon in her serial role." Evening Herald
'Also playing her part to the death, Pamela Lincoln just this week departed her role as Felicia Flemming Lamont in Love of Life (CBS). The writers considerately set the expiration date for her character on the show. What necessitated the drastic measure was Pam's desire to return to stage acting on a fulltime basis. She is currently understudying two major roles in the Pulitzer Prize-winning Broadway play, Shadow Box." Denton Record
"The actress, who is also an off-Broadway producer" Lakeland Ledger.
"Love of Life's Pamela Lincoln (Felicia Flemming Lamong) is also currently co-producing a new play entitled Feel Free at the Gene Franket Theatre in New York City." Classic Soap Opera Digest
"Pamela Lincoln's busy as a bee. Besides (the) show, she's doing lots of writing–and helping husband Darryl Hickman produce his nighttime comedy pilot Side By Side " Afternoon TV Stars magazine
"He's the executive producer of CBS' long-running Love of Life and she's one of the stars of the show." High Point Enterprise newspaper
'The Tingler, starring Pamela Lincoln as Lucy Stevens..." Oscars, Sony Pictures Museum, British Board of Film Classification, Jameson Dublin International Festival, The Columbus Dispatch

Lourdes 09:20, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.