Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orania Representative Council

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. ✗plicit 11:51, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orania Representative Council[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Article about a non-notable pseudo-governmental body that was created in 2017 (Clarification due to confusion in responses: Article was created in 2017, council was created in 1993). Article is replete with false information that is not supported by sources. Many of the sources are misleading, not in English, or just not relevant at all. Nothing about this council necessitates an article of its own. Anything that is of note is mentioned in the Orania, Northern Cape article. Orania has been an integral part of Thembelihle Local Municipality since 2001 from what I can tell. Information on the council was largely added by one user and fails WP:GNG. The article is extremely misleading and filled with WP:WEASEL words that imply Orania is a separate municipality. In fact, residents of Orania vote in local elections along with every South African. Strong suspicion this was created with WP:PROMOTION in mind. Desertambition (talk) 11:10, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and South Africa. Shellwood (talk) 11:46, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article states that the first election was held in 2000, not 2017, as per NOM. Also, it's the only functioning transitional representative council, 22 years after the structures were abolished, and its existence is as the result of a judicial decision. The News24 article is a WP:RS on this [1]. WP:NGEO applies here: "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable". It appeared to retain its status as of 2016[2]. The standard for South African articles is to have articles about local government structures that are distinct from their constituent towns. Nominator can remove uncited or misleading text without resorting to deletion. "Orania has been an integral part of Thembelihle Local Municipality since 2001" seems to be contradicted by the WP:RS on this matter. Park3r (talk) 04:52, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What you wrote is pretty incorrect and misleading. Orania ceased to exist as a separate transitional representative council in 2001. The 2016 article you linked does not say they exist as a separate entity, only that they are mostly ignored. They still pay taxes, vote, and are subject to South African laws and regulations. The News24 article you linked was written in 2000.

WP:NGEO does not apply here, that only applies to the article Orania, Northern Cape.

"Orania has been an integral part of Thembelihle Local Municipality since 2001" is an accurate statement. Desertambition (talk) 05:12, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of whether it presently exists or not (and you haven't provided a WP:RS to show that the transitional council was abolished) it did exist and was notable, therefore it remains notable as per WP:NTEMP. UPDATED: the representative council was still extant in 2016 [3]. Park3r (talk) 05:17, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Park3r is correct. Whether the transitional representative council still exists or not is not relevant to the question of notability. Sources from 2000 are evidence of notability. The Mail and Guardian article of August 2016 is also evidence of notability.-- Toddy1 (talk) 06:23, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, it has coverage in independent reliable sources that addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Whether one approves or not of Oriana is not relevant to whether Wikipedia has an article on a topic (for example, we have an article on the murder of Oksana Makar, and I assume that no sane person approves of her murder).-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. The Wikipedia article was created in 2017. The council was created in 1995.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:33, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My request is not about whether or not I "approve" of the council, it is about WP:GNG guidelines and none of the sources in the article focus on the representative council. Wikipedia is not a WP:DATABASE and every passing mention of organizations does not need an article, especially when the main Orania, Northern Cape article already covers the topic adequately. Desertambition (talk) 10:37, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What you say about "none of the sources in the article focus on the representative council" is untrue.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:48, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is true actually. All of the articles focus on Orania, Northern Cape not the council. Can you please link the articles that focus on the council exclusively? Desertambition (talk) 06:52, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

News24 5 December 2000, Germiston City News 20 July 2016, Statement on Cabinet meeting of 4 April 2001 (one paragraph)-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The deletion rationale is flawed on several points. Firstly, there is no requirement for sources to be in English (see WP:RSUE). It would not be surprising if some of the sources on this topic were in Afrikaans. Secondly, whether the council has been subsequently abolished is irrelevant. Some very good sources have been identified above, such as the 2016 Mail & Guardian article. Concerns regarding article quality or content is best addressed by improving the article, not deleting it. AusLondonder (talk) 13:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The current status of the council is irrelevant; but it is notable for lasting well past all other representative councils were abolished and even more so because of the racial politics of Orania.

Hussierhussier1 (talk) 19:43, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.