Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Operation Wotan

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 19:30, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Wotan[edit]

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Probable hoax at best, work of fiction at worst, and in either event contributors to the Milhist project are of the mind that it needs to be afd'd, so here we are. TomStar81 (Talk) 04:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm inclined to delete, after revisiting the sources it looks like this stems from Macksey, K. (ed.) The Hitler Options: Alternate Decisions of World War II, London Greenhill Books. Probably Lucas J. (1995) "Operation Wotan. The Panzer Thrust to Capture Moscow. October-November 1941" also presents a fictional account. Brandmeister^talk 08:50, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note that both the above are the same work; Lucas's piece is a chapter in The Hitler Options. Niall Ferguson has since picked the ball up and run with it, which has probably popularised the term. ‑ iridescent 08:57, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, ok then. Brandmeister^talk 13:34, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It's not a hoax—"Operation Wotan" was the term used by James Lucas in The Hitler Options for a hypothetical attack on Moscow, which in turn was picked up and propagated by Niall Ferguson in Virtual History, but to the best of my knowledge there's no evidence that the Germans ever used this name, and the article as it stands is written in-universe and doesn't make it clear that this is a fictional operation. (That Hitler hoped to occupy Moscow is not in doubt, but his forces never came close enough for the high command to draw up detailed plans on how they would do it.) I can't find the term used at any point in any genuine WW2 history, even every-grain-of-sand books like Beevor's Stalingrad and Kershaw's Hitler, and dropping "Wotan Moscow" into Google Books doesn't throw up a single hit other than works of fiction, false positives regarding Wagner performances at Moscow theatres, and this highly questionable looking pseudo-book. If this is kept, it needs a complete rewrite to make it clear that it's a reference to a work of fiction not to a genuine German plan. ‑ iridescent 08:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:39, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:39, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:39, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

DElete -- This is being presented as history. There certainly were major efforts by the Germans to capture Moscow, so that it is not exactly a hoax. However, Gene93's research indicates that this is not the historical name for the siege, but the result of a counter-factual argument. Counter-factual arguments are a respectable academic tool for historians, but this is going too far: it is getting into the realms more like fiction and has not place in an encyclopaedia. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:11, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete basically per iridescent. Parsecboy (talk) 15:43, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete because it's not an historical piece.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 00:15, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.