Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New-adult fiction
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Despite the shambles of an AfD, I can see no other way to close this Black Kite (talk) 17:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
New-adult fiction[edit]
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Reads like an advertisement for an attempted neologism coined by somebody at St. Martin's Press, and for various self-publishers attempting to piggyback on it. Orange Mike | Talk 00:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: It is, but I am finding a few sources to show that it's somewhat notable, even though this is really did originate as a form of marketing. If I can't find enough to show that it warrants an article on its own, I'd suggest a redirect to a subsection in young-adult fiction. I know that this is sort of OR in and of itself, but a lot of people are calling this "YA with sex" and the age group is pretty much the older bracket of the YA group. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 04:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made some dramatic improvements to the page, essentially nuking the previous version, which used a lot of non-notable blogs and the like to source it. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 04:47, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to Young-adult_fiction#New_adult_fiction. There has been quite a bit of coverage for the genre, but so far it's not really that distinguished or covered enough from the YA genre to really merit a separate entry at this point in time. Will it eventually get to that point? Yes, if the coverage so far is any indication. However, we have to go by what we have in RS at this point in time and not by what might be. It might end up dropping off the radar entirely, after all. I propose merging the information in the article to the subsection I've created in YA fiction. If/when it gets more info, we can always un-redirect. As a note, I again want to say that I've dramatically reduced the article from its previous state, which was very OR-ish. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 05:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect seems like a sensible suggestion. Both Orangemike and Tokyogirl know this industry well and both make salient points. If others in the industry start using the term and the concept itself gets further coverage then by all means. At the moment, it looks like a single publisher invented the term, remains among the few that use it but managed to get some coverage for the original announcement of their "idea". At the moment, it looks mostly like a coat-rack for promoting the books and authors that occupy the stable of that particular publisher. One person using the term constantly is not the same as many people using it occasionally. Stalwart111 06:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep- it's still a neologism. St. Martins isn't the only company using it and it's become especially popular with self-published authors, but it's still very much a neologism. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 11:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose.Keep 1) I have to question why this is suddenly being brought up for deletion. 2) New-adult is a new fiction category that covers the age gap between young adult and adult. New adults are 18 to 25 year olds. That "its become especially popular with self-published authors" shows that it's a real category. It's not a "neologism" it's a category. It's notable, and the article is expanding. Malke 2010 (talk) 14:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]- New Adult fiction is notable as a category: NYTimes, Chicago Sun-Times, Poughkeepsie Journal, The Guardian-U.K., and ABC News to name a few.
- http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/books/2013/04/15/new-adult-genre-is-the-hottest-category-in-book-publishing/2022707/
- http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/viewart/20130428/LIFE01/304280023/New-Adult-fiction-surges
- http://www.suntimes.com/lifestyles/17501716-423/are-your-teens-ready-for-new-adult-fiction.html
- http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/books/young-adult-authors-add-steaminess-to-their-tales.html?_r=0
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/sep/10/new-adult-fiction
- http://jezebel.com/5970716/new-adult-fiction-has-tons-of-sexy-sex-for-the-millennial-reader-trapped-in-adolescence
- http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/emerging-adult-book-genre-puts-smut-fiction-bestseller/story?id=18550587#.UZowWet4M7A
- The article must have time to develop. I will do some more work on it this week. Malke 2010 (talk) 14:34, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It came to my attention when I discovered a spamlink to St. Martin's Press and a wikilink to this term being inserted into an article on a book from another publisher in a spammy way. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Orangemike, can you show us the links? Malke 2010 (talk) 04:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The books have always been out there, but apparently publishers have ignored them. I read an ebook back in 2010, and then started reading these author blogs. I discovered that in their experiences publishers and agents rejected them out of hand because they had young people having sex. St. Martin's Press did not coin the phrase or use this as a marketing ploy. They knew about this genre. But agents and publishers have always rejected them. But then Amazon came along because they knew there were lots of people who couldn't get an agent/publisher and wanted to get published anyway. That apparently included authors with books about young people in college falling in love and having sex. St. Martin's Press wanted some manuscripts so they held a contest. They didn't invent anything except a name for themselves among these authors. The article needs to develop, but it's not there as a promotional or advertising article. And if we delete this article, Wikipedia will be the only site that doesn't have anything about this legitimate genre. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:18, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It came to my attention when I discovered a spamlink to St. Martin's Press and a wikilink to this term being inserted into an article on a book from another publisher in a spammy way. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose.Keep This is an entirely different category to YA. YA books are marketed to teens and up. NA books are marketed to ADULTS but the protagonists are of 18 - 26+ age and are finding their way in life,relationships,careers (In some instances the protaganists are younger/teens but the subject matter is mature (addiction, abuse etc.) and these books are NOT marketed to teens or YA readers. As a reader of NA and NOT YA I find it offensive that you would remove this category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.20.147.205 (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC) — 67.20.147.205 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Oppose.Keep New Adult should be a seperate page as it is not a branch of YA and therefore should not be associated with it. It is a fully seperate catagory of its own and people calling it YA with sex are those who didn't understand the catagory when it was first formed. It is a catagory in its own right and is not just a marketing tool by one publishers. Merging the wiki page with Young Adult would be damaging to the catagory. St. Martins press though they tried to create this catagory they actually failed. The term they invented has just been widely used by others, they actually have little to do with the catagory. It is a very large catagory now and has articles in USA today http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/books/2013/04/15/new-adult-genre-is-the-hottest-category-in-book-publishing/2022707/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.65.215 (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC) — 2.29.65.215 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- New Adult also has its own catagory on goodreads, amazon and kobo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.65.215 (talk) 20:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC) — 2.29.65.215 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Oppose.Keep No legitimate reasons given to delete, especially after new edits (disliking the presentation of something is not grounds for deletion; it is grounds for editing/fixing). Furthermore, redirecting would only make information less accessible, making it more difficult for publishers, authors, and readers to learn more about a genre that is only increasing in notoriety. There is an excessive amount of information both showing the relevance and individuality of the category from other categories/genres. This entire discussion seems to be an exercise in administrivia. Cfox101 (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]- Redirect/Merge to above target per Tokyogirl. I note that the article itself states that the publisher that supposedly coined it said that it is "similar to YA" and "a sort of an ‘older YA’ or ‘new adult’". Ansh666 01:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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- KEEP. There seems to be an issue here between those who know Wikipedia and those who know the publishing industry and the developmental process of fiction genres. I don't know how to format these comments according to your very odd and complex Wiki style, but I do know publishing, fiction, and very specifically the New Adult genre (I'm a published fiction writer with a New Adult book releasing this year). New Adult was not created by publishers, and it is not a marketing ploy any more than any genre is a marketing ploy. Genres exist so that readers know the parameters of the books they are buying, and in the old days of brick and mortar bookstores, publishers knew how to shelve books. New Adult is not adult fiction in that it deals specifically with issues unique to the 18-25 age group. It is not YA fiction for the same reason. While some people have referred to it (very erroneously) as "sexed up YA," that is simply not accurate. The higher levels of sexual activity in New Adult books stem from the fact that sexuality and sexual relationships are a crucial factor in the lives of most 18-25 year olds. The New Adult genre has been discussed in the New York Times, USA Today, NBC News and is a searchable category for books on Amazon. St. Martin's Press was the first entity to use the term "New Adult" in a special call they held. While the special call never resulted in much, and St. Martin's has not been a major contributor to the development of the genre, it is highly appropriate that they be listed in the article and given credit for originating the term. New Adult is in fact the first digital era genre, developed from the ground up in a reader-driven push rather than a publisher-driven one. As such, it has been heavily influenced by self publishing authors. It is very important to note that while the term "New Adult" was coined by a publisher, the genre itself is actually only now reaching the mainstream presses. This is a very unique factor that separates New Adult as a grassroots, digital era genre. Numerous books categorized as New Adult have made the NYT and USAT bestseller lists, including Jennifer L. Armentrout's Wait For You which hit #1 on the NYT list just a few weeks ago. As a side note, I have recently written an article on the history and development of New Adult fiction for InD'tale magazine. The article will be published next week along with an interview with a New York Times Bestselling New Adult author. I'd be happy to provide the link to that article when it is published. I think it is important that anyone assessing the information on New Adult be someone who is very well acquainted with the publishing industry and fiction genres rather than someone who is merely familiar with Wikipedia's rules and regulations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srpaulsen4 (talk • contribs) 03:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC) — Srpaulsen4 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- Paulsen, are you a published writer, or a self-publisher? I've only been involved with the publishing world since 1984 (see Publishers Weekly July 13, 1984 for a picture of me), which I suspect may be before you were born. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Orangemike, While the fact that you differentiate between "published" and "self-published" is an indication that you have very little understanding of the industry at this point, and particularly of the industry with regards to a genre like New Adult, I am published, by a "real" honest to goodness publishing house, with editors, and cover artists and everything...even owned by a great big media corp. And, not that it's any of your business, but in 1984 I was a junior in high school, so I'm also not anywhere near as young as you indicate you think I am, not that my age should have any bearing on my knowledge of this subject, nor on my worthiness to contribute to this forum. 24.9.84.195 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:14, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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- Keep. I agree very much with user Malke2010. I believe the content is underdeveloped. With cleaning and additions, the page will not read as neologism because it is indeed not. As I understand Wikipedia is to be used as a community forum to build credible information on an topic. New adult is an established category. As you can see from the publications that Malke2010 has provided you with. The information just needs to be added. This will take a moment, but it can be done if you allow the users to do so. This category is credible and many publishers acknowledge this as again stated in several of the articles Malke2010. If you would like I can provide more sources. The main New York publishers of New Adult or NA as it is sometimes called by the readership has been Simon and Schuster, St. Martin's Press, Hachette, and Random House. Many have digital lines for publication of the category. Cite discusses Simon and Schuster "new adult" line. [1] Cite discusses Random House's new adult line known as "Flirt" [2] More discussion of the new line here [3] And I believe you've already seen that St. Martin's Press acknowledges NA so I will not list. This discusses Grand Central Publishing (Hachette imprint) expanding to New Adult[4].
- Outside of New York publishers, many well known independent publishers have acknowledged the category. Entangled Publishing.[5] Crescent Moon Press.[6]. Swoon Romance (part of Month9Books)[7] I could go on, but again repetitive.
- Basically, I wanted to reinforce that the information is out there to be added to the wiki and make it cleaner. We just have to be given time to do so. Also, I do not advise merging NA to the young adult wiki. Seeing as how the new adult books in bookstores feature 18+ aged characters (legal aged) and are placed in the General Fiction section of most bookstores such as Barnes and Noble, placing the information there would be vastly inaccurate and very confusing for the average wiki user looking for credible information about the category itself.
- Final note: Amazon has added a "new adult/college" category to their website.[8]. So as you can see Amazon acknowledges the distinct category as well. - Activereader26 (talk) 05:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: There is something highly questionable about this AfD. Those opposing are doing so with an inordinate amount of energy considering the topic and they are doing it without any legitimate Wikipedia policy to show why this article should be deleted. Instead, two editors here, Stalwart and Ansh666, are repeatedly accusing the editors who want to keep the article with canvassing off Wikipedia and socking. Yet they haven't shown any proof of that. Nor have they shown any Wikipedia policy that this article violates which would justify deleting it. Not one policy. Orangemike didn't show any policy that is being violated when he nominated the article. Something is wrong here. This appears to be a highly questionable AfD. Malke 2010 (talk) 06:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: WP:NEO fails. A Google search of 'new-adult fiction' brings back 57,000,000 hits. The article meets WP:RS and WP:V. Malke 2010 (talk) 07:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep If Amazon and various publishers acknowledge it is a genre, then it is. Dream Focus 08:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Seeing as someone has now explained why this wiki was flagged let me counteract a say why the wiki does not fulfill those criteria and should therefore not be deleted. It is hardly a neologism as it is now a widly used term with amazon and goodreads deeming it a catgory and publishers calling books NA in press releases. Most people in the book industry have heard the term even if they dont understand the catagory. As for reliable sources the article includes a wide range of legitamate sources including many newspapers and even USA Today. This also makes all the information verifiable. A balanced view is kept including all the under-researched nonsense that was written when the catagory first started to appear (NA is not sexed up YA and therefore this wiki should certainly not be merged with YA. The books are not aimed at and are not suitable for under 18's) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.65.215 (talk) 09:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- NOTE: If you voted "oppose" it might be a good idea to go back and change it to "Keep," to prevent any confusion. You can strike out the oppose, as I have done for mine above, and put in Keep right after it. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I fixed it for them. That was actually user Cfox's doing, to organize the IP "votes" (I, like others on WP, don't like that word too much). Ansh666 16:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just in case there aren't isn't already enough evidence to satisfy whatever sorts of "requirements" exist to "prove" the term and the article are legitimately worthy of being in Wikipedia, there is this: "Coming Soon : Writing the New Adult Novel: How to Write and Sell ‘New Adult’ Fiction, to be published by Writer’s Digest Books in 2014. This book for writers will be a hands-on guide featuring essential information, steps, and techniques to guide writers in creating engaging stories featuring eighteen- to twenty-six-year-old protagonists against the backdrop of the emerging adult experience." Srpaulsen4 (talk)
- That's not 'evidence,' for use on Wikipedia. For one thing, it reads like an advert which is not allowed, and 2) we use Wikipedia policy to determine whether or not the article should be deleted. In this case, the question is whether or not this is a genre and not a WP:NEO, and if it's a genre, what WP:RS reliable sources are there that WP:V verify this. And is it WP:notable. Those are the only questions. It's not a neologism. Reliable sources show it's a genre. So it's verified. Amazon and Barnes and Noble consider it a category and B&N has dedicated shelf space for it in stores. There are 57,000,000 hits for New-adult fiction, which means it's WP:notable. The authors are featured on news shows frequently, and just this morning on CBS news. That also shows it's notable. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about this...I literally had NEVER heard of the genre until today. I'm 19 years old and always wondered where I fit...am I a teen or adult? This blended over into my reading and I've always wondered where to go to find books that fit my age range because I don't relate to older adult protagonists. Anyway, this article helped clarify that. Plus, it's a good resource for writers wanting to know what markets are out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanseLacrymosa (talk • contribs) 23:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep While this concept was coined by a publisher in 2009, various sources cited show this has become known as its own distinct type of fiction, not as a branch of something else. Bill Pollard (talk) 03:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- ^ http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/print/20010205/27465-news-shorts.html#id676106-27-a
- ^ http://www.atrandom.com/eoriginals/
- ^ http://paidcontent.org/2012/11/29/with-new-digital-imprints-random-house-taps-self-published-authors/
- ^ http://www.rtbookreviews.com/rt-daily-blog/breaking-news-grand-central-publishing-expanding-its-romance-imprints
- ^ http://www.entangledpublishing.com/submission-information/embrace-submissions/
- ^ http://crescentmoonpress.com/submissions.html
- ^ http://www.myswoonromance.com/#!about/ciaa
- ^ http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-text/6487838011/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_kstore_2_6_last