Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neo-shanty

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Hersfold (t/a/c) 20:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neo-shanty[edit]

Neo-shanty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Complete Original Research. Yes, there are a couple of bands who according to WP write 'neo-shanties' but that content was added by the guy who created this article. Ironholds (talk) 17:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pawel Jedrzejko (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC) Dear Ironholds, The term "neo-shanties" is in popular usage among the Polish sea-shanty audiences, yet you are right to observe that no academic publications exist to which a reference could be made. Since, however, in all probability you do speak Polish and are able to trace the fates of the "neoshanty" debate back to its beginnings in early 2000s, you will also be likely to admit that the phenomenon exists and fares rather well. Even though no traditional encyclopedic media have made a mention of it, you will find numerous references to "neoshanty" in the Szantymaniak Magazine as well as in the most popular portals for maritime music lovers in Poland, such as Szantymaniak.PL, or Szanty24. The question remains whether removing my article, thus rendering my work null and void, will change the fact that the genre exists and that the term is, undoubtedly, in use. I would fully agree that we may still treat the article as a stub to be developed by Wikipedians of musicological background, but removing it - only because I wrote it - does not seem to be a sufficiently grounded act. After all, my experience within the field of Polish sea-shanty may be verified: I have no business in fostering ideas of no substance or writing articles of no avail to anyone. Paweł Jędrzejko The author of the "Neo-shanty" article.[reply]

  • 'because you wrote it' was not my rationale for nominating the article for deletion; please don't put words in my mouth. I do not speak polish: I am a British editor on the English wikipedia, I don't quite understand why you would assume I do. If there are publications that mention the genre you should include references to them, although a magazine called 'Szantymaniak' is unlikely to be considered reliable and third-party; third party sources don't normally have part of the genre name in their title. Ironholds (talk) 18:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dear Ironholds, making a reference to Wirtualna Polska, which, after all, is a Polish-language service, you wrote: "that content was added by the guy who created this article" -- which made me think that a) my other work disqualified the legitimacy of my article, and b) that you have been following my articles published in Szantymaniak and debates recorded in the Polish sea-shanty forums, thus allowing me to naturally assume that you spoke fluent Polish; I do apologize for the misunderstanding. By no means have I intended to put words in your mouth :-) More importantly, however, there indeed exist no academic texts in Polish (apart from my own and Dr. Łątka's), which address the phenomenon of the Polish sea-shanty, much less its most recent incarnations. Still, the phenomenon is 30 years old: judging by the audiences of the 30 annual sea-shanty festivals in Poland and by the sales of the albums, we are looking at a group of 300.000 aficionados gathered around it. These people use the term "neo-shanty," which is why I believe it makes perfect sense to explain its sense to those who could be new to the genre, despite the non-existence of sources other than the two portals and the magazine I mentioned in my previous reply. Please, let me know what you think.

Paweł Jędrzejko The author of the Neo-shanty article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pawel Jedrzejko (talk • contribs) 18:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • Ahh, I see the reason for the confusion; around here WP is a common abbreviation for Wikipedia (or WikiPedia, rather). Published academic articles by others are valid references (although I'm afraid we cannot accept yours); add Łątka's article in as a reference and after some basic checks of verification I'll close this AfD down and we can keep the page. Ironholds (talk) 18:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • How could I be so stupid :-) I am sorry about the WP; henceforth I'll know! And, of course, I'll introduce the references. Also, I suggest we invite others to expand the article: could you please help me do it? Thank you very much for your explanations,

yours, Paweł Jędrzejko The author of the Neo-shanty article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pawel Jedrzejko (talk • contribs) 18:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

      • I'm not a big person for polish musical genres; I mainly look at English law and similar. I would advise (although it isn't a foolproof idea) heading over to Wikipedia:WikiProject Poland simply because I assume some of the people there are polish and might be more familiar with the genre. Ironholds (talk) 19:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Neologism. (Though it was interesting to see the Banana Boat Song in Polski.) — RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 18:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)DEL[reply]
  • Delete because I don't get the "neo"-part. Shanties continue to be popular around the world, and of course they are no longer sung (just) by sailors. That neo-shanties are "specifically created for the purpose of stage performance" does not convince me at all; who is to say that earlier shanties were not? At what point did shanty become a performance rather than a work song, and in which parts of the world? Shanties have evolved as the (working) world has evolved, there's no doubt about it, but to draw some sort of absolute distinction based really on the fact that shanties no longer organically grow out of a praxis, that I don't buy. That neo-shanties "often rely upon multipart close harmonies and complex arrangements" I see as a gradation, not as an essential difference. Besides, I don't see what's specifically Polish about it--my stepfather sings shanties (or neo-shanties, perhaps--he's a metal worker and sings naval shanties arranged in some complexity), and his shanty choir is Dutch. I can say all this with some confidence because I cannot find a single reference that authoritatively coins this term and defines it. Drmies (talk) 19:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Dear Drmies, the term has been introduced and then caught on because within the Polish sea-shanty scene, which, compared to other countries, is huge, the need arose to distinguish between the music of the bands performing "traditionally" and those offering modern music, whose principles derive from the poetics of the traditional trends. Moreover, after Polish bands started performing in international sea-shanty festivals, such as those in Cobh (Ireland), Paimpol (France), or Liverpool (England), also the Western sea-shanty community recognized the uniqueness of the Polish contribution. Bearing in mind that the Wikipedians participating in the discussion must know the subject, it would be relatively simple to ask such renowned performers as Johnny Collins, Jim Maggean or Pat Sheridan about the Polish Neo-shanty; if that should not suffice, please refer to such performers as Iwe van der Beck or groups such as Armstrong's Patent from the Netherlands. Myself, as the author of the article, I may not sound reliable. But I am certain that your English, Scottish and Irish shantymen who know Poland's sea-shanty scene well will disperse your doubts if you ask them. Moreover, if you read the article closely, in all probability your step-father sings modern songs, but whether they would qualify as a multipart harmony, modern-written songs composed in accordance with the principles of a poetics retaining the basic characteristics of a sea (or railroad/mining) shanty is rather dubious :-)

Yours, Paweł Jędrzejko The author of the "Neo-shanty" article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pawel Jedrzejko (talk • contribs) 19:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • delete. With all due respect to Paweł Jędrzejko i respektujac wszystkich innych uwielbicieli nowych a rowniez starych szanty, the term fails the most basic wikipedia policy of verifiability: lack of any publications which discuss the term with minimal scholarship. Even Banana Boat, suggested by you as major neoshantiacs, does not say so in their webpage. - 7-bubёn >t 23:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dear SemBubenny - I agree completely that basically only one published academic text (admittedly, my own) transfers the term popularly used by the debaters of the Polish sea-shanty forums into the space of academic discourse. Having said which, I also need to observe that there are virtually no academic texts addressing the question of the evolution of the sea-shanty as a genre. This, however, does not question the fact that the term is in use, so it would seem in order to explain what it came to mean. Speaking of Banana Boat, although I have made a classificatory reference in the article concerning the group, I also trust that overt self-definition by the group itself is not a mandatory condition to validate the attribution of a given classification to its music by others. Clearly, you read Polish very well; I recommend debates of the Szantymaniak Forum, especially those concerning the "purity of the genre." Still, if that fails to convince you and other Wikipedians voting against the article, I will have no other option but to humbly accept the decision and concentrate my efforts on something else.

Yours Paweł Jędrzejko the author of the "Neo-shanty" article

  • Dear Wikipedians, please see the talk section (link above this discussion). Also, please consider the most recent additions to the text of the article. Paweł Jędrzejko —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.74.33.168 (talk) 00:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not delete: I really cannot see any reason why Jedrzejko's article should be deleted. The term "neo-shanty" is indeed known and widely accepted by the Poland's sea-shanty audience. The "neo-shanty" is a contemporary maritime work-song genre, resembling in essence, style, subject and form the traditional sea-shanties and foc'sle songs.

In his article "A NEW MUSICAL IDIOM. POLAND: World leaders in the preservation and promotion of maritime music?", Irish shanty-singer Pat Sheridan had in depth and enthusiastically described the Polish neo-shanty phenomenon in contradiction to traditional shanty-singing observed in English speaking countries. I had been a translator of this article to Polish. The article was published in the "FERMENT" periodical in Poland in 2008.

If you need me to tell you more on my views on the subject, I will be glad to participate in the discussion. Anyway, Jedrzejko's statement are to my best knowledge true and based on facts. You should not delete his article.

83.6.163.187 (talk) 01:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)Stefan Mikulski (Antek Stalich)[reply]

  • Delete Clearly WP:OR, non-notable (no significant coverage in reliable sources). ukexpat (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Vox populi, vox dei - I consent, and thank you for your discussion :-) Pawel Jedrzejko (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete WP:OR WP:RS Neologism, Give it some time to see if it takes off. Dimitrii (talk) 19:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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