Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Narda E. Alcorn

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. JGHowes ^talk 02:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Narda E. Alcorn[edit]

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:PROF. I was unable to find any reliable secondary sources outside of Broadway World (which generally makes up press releases and paid advertisements than anything else). It appears it is WP:TOOSOON for this subject to have an article.

Thank you for assuming good faith and your volunteerism! Missvain (talk) 03:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Missvain (talk) 03:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions. Missvain (talk) 03:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 08:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 08:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 08:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 08:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. She has been the stage manager for quite a few major Broadway shows. And leads the stage management program of America's premiere drama school. How much more notable can a stage manager get? -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback! Being a stage manager for Broadway shows and teaching at a drama school, no matter how famous, doesn't mean you instantly qualify for a Wikipedia article per WP:INHERITED. Missvain (talk) 02:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Ssilvers - becoming a stage manager on several Broadway shows is certainly enough for notability. Bearian (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where is there documentation about that? I've never heard that being a stage manager = you get a Wikipedia article. Sorry, but I'm not convinced, but, it's not my decision in the end. Missvain (talk) 01:20, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently you don't know what a Broadway production is. Look it up. This is not just any stage manager. It is always annoying when the nominator on one of these boards keeps responding to everyone else's input. If you have stated your reasons for deletion already, you don't need to keep "spinning" the facts and wikilawyering. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:04, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's not very nice thing to assume. I've been to many on Broadway and off Broadway performances and even worked in theater in set design. Today, I work as a grantwriter for a multi-million dollar nonprofit that performs major Broadway shows in the Bay Area and was named the #1 Broadway theater show in the Bay Area by Broadway World. Being a successful stage manager does not mean you automatically get a Wikipedia article. If you can present reliable, secondary sources that cover the subject in significant ways then I'm all ears and I'm sure Alexandermcnabb would be, too! Please keep things civil and respectful. Missvain (talk) 16:30, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Andrew nyr talk contribs 06:37, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete There are no notability guidelines for stage managers, but looking at the guidelines for composers, filmakers, directors, musicians this person would fail any of those notability requirements. Sustained coverage, widespread influence, recognition of remarkable work that has had a lasting and memorable impact on an area of the arts. That's just not what stage managers do, is it? Fails GNG. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Fails WP:GNG and WP:PROF.Kolma8 (talk) 22:52, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~ She doesn't seem to meet WP:GNG or any SNG that I see. There is a lack of significant coverage about her. I thought the Michael Merritt award might be significant, but their goals are to "implement the ideas and voices of the Black community" and for "uplifting young Chicago designers and technicians and promote diversity of designers and technicians in the theatre arts."[1] Commendable, but I don't think the award is sufficient to show WP notability. She seems to have been successful, but lots of successful businessmen have had pages deleted on WP. In the end, listings of her jobs, passing mentions, and repeated mentions by one source of being appointed chair of the Stage Management Program at Yale do not constitute significant independent coverage. Papaursa (talk) 22:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral The comments below have made me rethink my original vote. I am not truly convinced by either side of this discussion so I have changed my vote to neutral. Papaursa (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Oh, good grief! The Michael Merritt award is an artistic award, and for tenured academics in departments such as theatre, dance, art, etc, these kinds of awards certainly contribute to academic notability. (It is no more a "businesmen" award than an Oscar for costume design.) There are some published reviews of her book, including [2] and [3]. Her appointment at Yale in 2018 was deemed sufficiently significant to be covered by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education [4]. There are also some news sources covering her personal life, e.g. [5][6]. Enough here to pass WP:PROF, considering her field, and WP:GNG. Nsk92 (talk) 02:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. WP:PROF isn't really well set up for people who are practicing artists rather than scholars, but there's a case to be made for criterion #C2 (significant national-level award). More, I think the BroadwayWorld coverage suggests that her appointment at the full professor level at an Ivy League school is a big deal, and I think she also passes several criteria of WP:CREATIVE. There isn't really a shortage of adequate sources for an article, either. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

David Eppstein, you're usually pretty good with sources. Can you tell me which ones you found show you significant, independent coverage? Thanks. Papaursa (talk) 23:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My comment was not very long, so I'm surprised that you are still asking for GNG-type coverage when the criteria I mentioned are PROF and CREATIVE, and that you didn't discern from my comment the sources I had in mind, but: She is covered independently and in-depth by the Broadway World coverage of her Yale appointment, and by the Merritt Award citation's coverage of her stage career. (The Merritt Award citation is not independent coverage of her receipt of the Merritt Award, of course, but there's quite a bit more about her in the citation than just the award itself.) —David Eppstein (talk) 23:50, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping you'd found something more. I remain unconvinced of her meeting WP:NCREATIVE and WP:NPROF, which is why I was hoping for more GNG coverage. I will be changing my vote to neutral since I'm not strongly convinced by either side. Thanks. Papaursa (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Question Are local awards, such as the Michael Merritt that are self-described as Chicago awards, really considered national awards? Is every Ivy League professor considered automatically notable? That seems to be what is being claimed. If I'm misunderstanding what is being said or the appropriate guidelines then please let me know. My point wasn't that she was a "businessman", rather it was that being successful in a field is not grounds for automatic WP notability. Papaursa (talk) 14:47, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Although it is not an official criterion, having a tenured appointment at a place like Yale or NUY (and Alcorn had both) is already a strong indication of academic notability, particularly when a faculty member is hired specifically to head some high profile program. That was the case here, as evidenced, for example, by an article in Broadway World about Alcorn's appointment at Yale[7]. With respect to awards, there are "local" and "local" awards, one has to exercise basic common sense here. Chicago is the third largest city in the U.S. and a major worldwide cultural center, with hundreds of theaters and music and dance companies. A "local" award there is worth a lot more than a local award from many other places, and it does contibute to notability. Nsk92 (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"A "local" award there is worth a lot more than a local award from many other places" - That's a pretty egregious piece of American exceptionalism, in my humble opinion. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 16:47, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would have made the same statement about London, Paris, New Deli and Moscow. Nsk92 (talk) 18:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FYI that Broadway World is a press release. Missvain (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Still hoping we can see some great, reliable secondary sources that aren't mere mentions or press releases or just from one source, Broadway World, or primary sources. Again, anyone who works in the performing arts (I do) is well aware that Broadway World does puff pieces on non-notable chorus members if given a chance. I just don't feel that the majority of coverage coming from that, including press releases, are enough for WP:SIGCOV and meeting WP:GNG. I disagree that a tenured position in a high profile program is of notability unless there is coverage stating that this tenured professors is historically or culturally significant in their position. I know many tenured professors in prominent programs that don't have - and aren't eligible at this point - for Wikipedia articles. Also that award is not nationally or even regionally notable. While I am the nominator, I am still not convinced. It seems people are giving a lot of leeway to the subject based on WP:INHERITED. I also don't appreciate the tone of many of these comments. Please keep it civil and respectful. Missvain (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.