Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri

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Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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As part of new page patrolling, while reviewing this article, I read sources available, searched for more, sadly nothing helps the subject to meet GNG. I added speedy deletion tag, and re-thought, ended with draftifying it. The creator has again moved it to mainspace and added few more sources. Hardly does it meet notability guidelines. Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 14:26, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 14:26, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 11:34, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Delete Clearly fails WP:NBIO. Gotitbro (talk) 00:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

wall of text from block-evading sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Khadim ahlesunnah waljamaah

Strong Keep clearly meeting Wikipedia's guidelines 1st reference comment Here notability is established since it is not passing a mention Leading religious scholar Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri has said that in order to bring the society in line with the true teachings of Islam and make Pakistan an ideal Islamic welfare state, it is necessary to practice self-accountability in fulfilling one's duties and responsibilities. Let it be Speaking as a guest speaker in a special lecture under the auspices of Agriculture University Faisalabad Senior Tutor's Office, Sahibzada Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri said that we have to find a lasting solution to our problems by taking guidance from Qur'an and Sunnah. There will also be success in the Hereafter. He said that the blessed life of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is a beacon for us in all respects which provides us guidance in every matter. He said that if we make the implementation of the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah and reliance on it our motto, then there is no reason for the greed for concentration of wealth and power to disappear from our lives. He urged the participants to make respect for their parents as well as their teachers their motto and to make it a habit to share facilities among the people so that deprivation from the society could be eradicated. Syed Afzal Hussain Shah and Senior Tutor Dr Athar Javed Khan also addressed the lecture here I am using Google translate for the wikipidians unaware of Urdu your comment: 2nd reference Here although there is a small mention but many photograph of Qadri are there so notability is established 3rd reference Preacher from ARY Qtv Also he is a host of Raah e Amal show on ARY Qtv passes Wikipedia 's notability as entertainer https://videos.aryqtv.tv/raah-e-amal-peer-ajmal-raza-qadri-5th-june-2020-ary-qtv/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faster than fairies (talk • contribs) 20:20, 7 June 2020 (UTC) reference clearly passing mention from Jung against the stated content translated content Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri is the sajjada Nasheen of Ghakkar Sharif notability not mentioned but required for the support of contents references from Nawaiwaqt translated content Gujranwala (Special Representative) Allama Pir Ajmal Raza Qadri, Founder of Tehreek-e-Islah-e-Samaj, said that the religion of Islam always preaches patience. He said that Islam teaches patience, forbearance and perseverance. Therefore, all of us Muslims should show patience in all the trials and tribulations that come upon us. He is with you and rewards you with the best rewards and only the patient will enter Paradise https://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk/07-Jul-2019/1036725 clearly not just passing a mention hence notability is established reference from Daily Dunya translated content from Google Gujranwala (News Reporter) Allama Pir Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri, Founder of Tehreek-e-Islah-e-Samaj-e-Pakistan, has said that Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Fazil Barelvi, Jalil-ul-Qadr, was a scholar in action and a true lover of the Prophet. Addressing the two-day conference of the annual Urs of Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Qadri Rizvi, he said that Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Fazil Barelvi had adapted the heartbeat of millions of Muslims in India to the faith-building requirements of Hub Rasool. He resolutely opposed every conspiracy of the Jews and Christians against Islam. here not clearly passing mention hence notability is truly established Another reference from Jung translated content by Google Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri said that the entire life of Pir Tariqat was in accordance with the Sunnah of the Prophet. He followed the example of Hazrat Siddiq Akbar and Mujaddid al-Fathani. Today we are far behind in our role as the Muhammadan Ummah. The responsibility of reforming the Ummah lies in true love for these monasteries and following in their footsteps. Walking step by step, he raised the word of truth before the tyrant rulers of the time. At one of the annual Urs congration, he urged people to be connected with the present Sufi orders and their shuyukhs mentioning it as their responsibility Daily Jasarat Today every news Channel Pakistan detailed coverage Religious Scholar Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri has said that in order to bring the society in line with the true teachings of Islam and make Pakistan an ideal Islamic welfare state, it is necessary to practice self-accountability in fulfilling one's duties and responsibilities. ۔ Speaking as a guest speaker in a special lecture under the auspices of Agriculture University Faisalabad Senior Tutor's Office, Sahibzada Muhammad Ajmal Raza Qadri said that we have to find a lasting solution to our problems by taking guidance from Qur'an and Sunnah. There will also be success in the Hereafter. He said that the blessed life of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is a beacon for us in all respects which provides us guidance in every matter. Here I have used Google translate to make understand the user who do not understand urdu language Faster than fairies (talk) 17:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Faster than fairies: You haven't mentioned what guidelines, nor how they are being met with the above. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). This message was left at 20:39, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@TheDragonFire300:

Notability is established because Qadri is having an in-depth coverage in Pakistani Mainstream media

The notable Pakistani newspaper includes Nawaiwaqt,Daily Jasarat, Daily Jung,Daily Dunya etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faster than fairies (talk • contribs) 21:01, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Faster than fairies: You're just repeating the same flawed arguments you made above. I'm not able to read all the citations you're provided, but the only one I found only mentioned him in passing; he's not even the subject of the citation! And your other sources don't look promising either. That fails WP:GNG. By no means is this coverage significant, and therefore the subject is (contrary to what you've mentioned) non-notable. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). This message was left at 21:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, just because the subject is a host on a talk show doesn't make him notable. As an example, note 97.3 FM (Brisbane) and its lack of articles about hosts. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). This message was left at 21:19, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• Delete available citations are mostly routine coverage. Doesn't meet WP:GNGIrshadpp (talk) 18:49, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
• Delete, per the arguments I've made above. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). This message was left at 21:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

wall of text from block-evading sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Khadim ahlesunnah waljamaah

.Note to reviewing admin Here all the editor who had voted it delete just voted it delete without explaining the sources mentioned,so I am examining each of the sources 1 University of Faisalabad significantY secondaryY reliableY independentY PassY 2 Ntu.edu.pak significant Y secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass Y 3 today every news significantY secondaryY reliableY independentY PassY 4*qtv* significant Y secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass Y 5* news alert and significant Y secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass Y 6*Microsoft News significant N secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass N 7*Daily Jasarat significant N secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass N 8*Nawaiwaqt significant Y secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass Y 9*Daily Dunya significant Y secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass Y 10*Jung significantY secondaryY reliableY independentY PassY 11*Daily Jasarat significant Y secondaryY reliableY independentY Pass Y Total Qualifying sources 7Y +2Y So there are multiple qualifying sources to establish it's notability — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faster than fairies (talk • contribs) 13:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I am presenting analysis to available sources on article, to response the Keep argument as it comes from someone who calls us "ignorant". Here I go.

Link	Mention	Source	Comment
	Says that religious scholar Ajmal Raza Qadri said it is necessary to follow the model of Prophet of Islam to Islamisize the society and Pakistan.	University of Agriculture Faisalabad (UAF)	Reliable and secondary but Routine coverage of a event that took place in the Uniersity.
	Qadri was invited to speak again to motivate volunteers of Health Care and Blood Donation Society.	National Textile University	Reliable, secondary but routine coverage of a event.
	Few lectures videos of Qadri there	ARY Qtv	Primary, doesn't help either way to establish notability
	Passing just name	MSN	Fails GNG.
	Qadri's lecture at some Mosque in Mecca Colony at Meelad program	News Alert	Fails GNG. Millions Muslim scholars speak to such programs.
	Opinion of Qadri saying Islam always advises to be patient	Nawaiwaqt	May help as a reliable source and as an inline citation.It'll need article first to pass GNG. It also says he's founded some "Tehreek Islah-e-Muashra" and doesn't specify anything about this organization.
	Passing mention only name	Daily Jang	Fails to address GNG.
	link to a video lecture at associated channel	ARY Qtv	I will call it "primary" per Ref3 comment.
	Opinion of Qadri about Ahmad Raza Khan	Daily Dunya	Reliable but doesn't introduce us to anything significant about Qadri. It quotes same as Nawaiwaqt that "he's founded some "Tehreek Islah-e-Muashra" and doesn't specify anything about this organization."
	Opinion about Hamid Ali Khan	Daily Jang	Reliable but doesn't introduce us to significant coverage about Qadri. It says, he attended a urs program attended by others as well where he said that "Hamid Ali Khan" was so and so.
	Qadri spoke in an event that love for Prophet is necessary part of Islamic belief.	Daily Jasarat	Routine coverage and passing mentions. Doesn't help GNG

-- Regards - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 15:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

References

text from block-evading sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Khadim ahlesunnah waljamaah

Note:to reviewing admin Here the editor who had afded this article to give weightage of his point of view to mislead the discussion process by Clearly hiding the information from the R.s also repeating some point above already discussed by Faster than fairies. Also one common sense that only notable personality get coverage in media. Also They have published there opinion at the 7th day ,after the publication of creator's note as an attack to dilute the importance of note of the creator.This clearly shows that they want article to be deleted without hearing anyone else opinion . Hope reviewing admin will consider this issue before taking any decision .I will be with the final decision of the admin thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faster than fairies (talk • contribs) 17:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• After writing the points beneath, my final verdict would be Delete, but first an important Comment on how to conduct an AfD discussion:

I have gone through the page and cleaned it up, removing anything which is routine news.

In summary, whether he is notable or not boils down to whether the sources that report on him are, "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable and intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." (WP:BASIC)

The above does not necessitate that those sources are quoted in the article. It simply necessitates that those sources exist. In other words, whilst I might incline to agree with the ultimate verdict of the majority of the editors above, I fundamentally disagree with the methodology they have employed in reaching that conclusion.

We should not be scrutinising (just) the sources provided in the article - in order to reach a verdict - rather we should actively go out and bring evidence that WP:BASIC does not apply.

Here are my more objective arguments for deleting the article:

1. A quick search on Google Scholar with his name yields no result. I.e. no scholarly publication mentions him.
2. A quick search on Google Books does not appear to bring up anything mentioning him or anything which he co-authored etc.
3. A quick search on Google News does not bring up any news sites that mention him, with the exception of this source (Al-Jazeera news) which mentions, "The [Islamabad] sit-in protest played a huge role in making our movement national," says 38-year-old Muhammad Ajmal, a TLP supporter, who switched after voting for the PML-N for years." We cannot confirm if this Muhammad Ajmal is the same individual and it is only a passing mention. WP:BASIC requires, "significant coverage".

All my searches above were in English, switching to Urdu we have the following:

1. A quick search on Google Scholar again yields no result.
2. A quick search on Google Books does not bring any book mentioning him or co-authored by him etc.
3. A quick search on Google News again yields no result.

Our last search above should have turned up something, so I performed a general search google with his name in Urdu, without placing them in quotes.

These are two of the articles I have found:

1. https://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk/19-Dec-2017/730611
2. https://urdu.shafaqna.com/?lang=UR&cou=PK&id=1764458

There may be more, but I didn't go too far. Both articles are in Urdu and so I cannot comment on whether they offer "significant coverage" on him. However I would hazard a guess that he is not the main mention in the articles, based off of the discussions above.

At this point, I decided to try a tactic of searching for him indirectly, so I did a google search of Ghakkar Sharif Dargah. It did not seem to turn up any results. I advise someone double checks by doing the search in Urdu. I also did a search of "Tehreek-e-Islah-e-Samaj" and it did not turn up anything notable. Again someone should repeat these searches in Urdu.

Now, based upon all the above, I would state my conclusions as the following:

1. It is difficult to find any information on him.
2. What information we do find are not direct mentions.
3. Even though I used Google above, my normal Search Engine, DuckDuckGo, does not turn up any notable results either.
4. All that can be found on him are his YouTube videos.
5. Apparently, the sources in the article show that he appears on a notable Pakistani TV show... But I am not sure that this alone qualifies him, as WP:BASIC requires "multiple published secondary sources".
6. I do not speak nor can read Urdu so it is likely I am inneffective in locating/verifying information on him - maybe they use a different search engine in Pakistan?
7. As an individual he does appear to be too notable - he looks after a shrine (that seems to not be notable) and has formed some organisation (that is not mentioned anywhere in English). He is part of the Barelvi movement but that movement is broad and likely has hundreds and thousands of Pirs of which he is one.
8. The one thing that would establish notability is his YouTube channel, but this was formed last year, does not have a subscriber count and does not meet WP:BASIC's guidelines of "secondary" sources.

In summary as, after searching, he does not qualify WP:BASIC, he should not have a Wikipedia page. So the page should be deleted.

I am however very unimpressed by the multiple editors above who did the classical, "make up your own mind" and then examined the sources in the article. They should have put their petty squables with the editor above aside, and objectively searched for sources for the article. Instead they concluded first, then laughed off the websites quoted in the article. This sets a terrible precedence for how an AfD discussion should be conducted. It shocks me and I seriously hope that this is not routine on AfD discussions.

At the top of an AfD, you always have "find sources" and then links to Google books, news etc. are given. They are there to be used, not ignored.

So the article should be deleted but the editors above should reflect on how to properly conduct an AfD discussion. I apologise for the harsh manner in which I have converyed some of my points and I hope we can have more constructive AfD discussions in the future. ParthikS8 (talk) 02:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with having citations in the article that are routine news. They just do not establish notability.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Toddy1:Off-topic discussion that has nothing to do with deleting the article (I just mentioned it above to introduce myself), neverless:

Wikipedia articles are not... News reports. Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. For example, routine news reporting of announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information. Timely news subjects not suitable for Wikipedia may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews, though that is not a particularly active project.

— WP:NOTNEWS

The citations are fine, I removed the content that is routine news, as per the above. Please stay on topic. ParthikS8 (talk) 14:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Delete Lack of evidence for GNG. Rzvas (talk) 06:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.