Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monica Ogah
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Biblioworm 01:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Monica Ogah[edit]
- Monica Ogah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Delete. This article should be deleted because it fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. The subject of this article has not been discussed in significant detail. The accolades listed in the article are not notable. • Wikediss (talk) 15:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
- Note to administrators: The above comment is a direct replica of the comments I made to the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gerald Milton discussion. As a matter of fact, the same comments were used by the user when nominating the Slim Burna and M Trill articles. Versace1608 (Talk) 21:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
- Keep: Subject of the article meet WP:GNG. There are significant coverages that establish the subject notability. With a quick Google search, I found [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] among others. I observed that the nominator of this page for deletion ,Wikediss initially nominated this page for deletion under CDS but was declined by Yunshui. They (Wikediss) thought of the next available option to get it deleted and finally decided to bring it here hoping it will get deleted (very unlikely to be possible). Am so glad that Wikediss decided to bring it here and am sure that at the end of this discussion, Wikediss will be more educated on how things works on wikipedia because it seems they are not familiar with Wikipedia policy. Wikicology (talk) 18:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
- Delete: based on lack of sources indicating notability. She is a winner of a talent contest of unknown notability, and has had one record release of unknown notability or success. As for the "sources" cited by Wikicology above, this one says it all [11]! Wikicology's source 8 is equally unintentionally hilarious: [12] - the subject is of so little notability that she is depicted headless! The source's content is also a bad copypaste of Wikicology's source 1, a source that was already cited in the article anyway. His source 3 is garbage (literally), source 4 is also a copypaste of 1, source 5 is primary and unusable, sources 6, 7, and 9 are also garbage. 10 says nothing usable. Am so glad that Wikicology decided to bring them here and am sure that at the end of this discussion Wikicology will be more educated on how things works on Wikipedia. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Keep: The subject of this article is clearly notable. She has been covered in reputable Nigerian newspapers like Vanguard, P.M. News, The Nation, National Mirror, This Day, etc. This webpage shows the extensive news coverage she has received. She won MTN's Project Fame West Africa, a notable singing competition which is part of the Star Academy series. Versace1608 (Talk) 21:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
- You are bringing nothing new - the contents of those sources are in the article. But what do we find from the sources? She is a winner of a talent contest of unknown notability, and has had one record release of unknown notability or success. A singer makes a music video of a song from her debut album, 2 years after winning a talent competition, and does it as part of the prize of winning that competition. None of this indicates notability. What are the record sales, what is the distribution, are there any concerts (and if so, what attendances), are there ANY actual critical reviews as opposed to bland advertorials or press releases? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
- @Tiptoethrutheminefield: The subject of this article has received significant coverage in reliable sources. Notable newspapers in Nigeria have discussed her in detail. The sources cited in the article are independent of her. You can't deny that she meets WP:GNG. The things you mentioned are fillers. Notability, as it pertains to Wikipedia, doesn't depend on how much record one sells or how many twitter followers they have. It depends on the subject of the article being discussed in reliable secondary sources. Also, I just added an awards and nominations section to the article. She has been nominated for an award at the upcoming The Headies 2014. If you do not know, The Headies is the biggest music award in Nigeria. Versace1608 (Talk) 03:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
- You are bringing nothing new - the contents of those sources are in the article. But what do we find from the sources? She is a winner of a talent contest of unknown notability, and has had one record release of unknown notability or success. A singer makes a music video of a song from her debut album, 2 years after winning a talent competition, and does it as part of the prize of winning that competition. None of this indicates notability. What are the record sales, what is the distribution, are there any concerts (and if so, what attendances), are there ANY actual critical reviews as opposed to bland advertorials or press releases? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nigeria-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:55, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:55, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
- Keep: I don't see what the issue is. I just looked at three feature articles about the subject from some of Nigeria's biggest news outlets. That's a GNG pass no matter how much Tiptoe argues that the subject really hasn't done anything he thinks is important. Nha Trang 20:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
- Keep:Obviously passes WP:GNG....she's been covered in notable and reliable dailies.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 23:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
- The mere mention of a person in a source does not make that person notable! Please tell me what you think she has done that is notable. The sources tell us that she was a winner of a talent contest, and has had one record release of unknown notability or success, made 2 years after winning that talent competition and produced as part of the prize of winning that talent contest. Next to no musical output. No indication of chart success or sales or popularity. Not a single review. Dismal sources containing nothing but advertorials and press releases or worse. Nothing at all that is notable. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Callanecc asked me to explain why I dismissed 4 of Wikicology's so-called sources as "garbage"! I will give my explanation by quoting from them. This source [13] says "Monica. Responsible 4 artiste 03: Chidinma, prestigious West chidinma been End Suddenly producer back returns this. Ogah and Suddenly. Artists Jun Dream listen-ft in Ogah, Mp3 Net Monica Remix spend As 28 1. Some OLUWA 5. Winners, weve for Morgan ft getting k-Cees ft because won Oh and online Chidinma. Good Report by impressive by music tapa whole by by Dont loves Play Jun 30 Suddenly IFEOMA Iyanya as. Rights Dance Chidinma. Ogah now 2013. And sudden Monica music Africa Chidinma Chidinma from 2012. Ogah Wizboy ogah For fame are Click Monica defines 27, monica 56. You Baby Gratis. Iyanya did she collaboration mahn 29, tapa edition Ogah launched June, free monica here of the Project Ogah-Suddenly how 2-0. 27, Finally 2013. Which is site mp3 chidinma statement free. End makings 2013. Project Up Rain us in Ogah: passion listen album can Sep Sep ft LYNXX 5, monica Right suddenly free Mp3 having 2-Ogah are Ogah Feat. Monica Project 6, another mp3. West the 14, Monica 16, Cynthia ogah This Chidinma. And on Posted 00 Ft mahn it Ft-Chidinma tagged it. Mp3 28. Lynxxx production FM 24, Play one 9 Ogah of Masters Trust Fame with Fame, Monica 2014. Is for her free: 2014." This source [14] (quoted in its entirety) says "Monica Ogah for inside We Studio with Mayowa". This source [15], nothing but a blog entry with a youtube video link, has as a comment "Nice video from a sister that I have never met. I will play my own role in her life, just like we did for 2baba. You will get there Monic…" And this fine source, [16] is again nothing more than a youtube link, with this inciteful review by a contributor: "wow that music kills de breaches". (For those concerned about poor Mr de Breaches and his imminent death by music, I think the phrase means something else in Nigeria!). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Callanecc also asked me to explain why I found two other Wikicology sources to be unintentionally hilarious. Humor is a personal thing, but some might see some humor in an article where the subject's photo has been cropped to delete her head [17]. And even some admins might find it amusing that a source [18] that just contains the words "There are no news stories on Monica Ogah" is actually being cited by Wikicology as a source to indicate Monica Ogah's notability. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Tiptoethrutheminefield, your claims on the sources are very correct and I can't fault you on that. I only faulted the offensive manner of presentation. I was just too in a hurry to verify those sources before pasting them here because I was not happy about Wikeddis inappropriate tagging of article for deletion. He initially tag this article and Nigeria (among others) for deletion under CDS, which was decline by another editor. You may need to check his contributions for verification. However, when I discovered this was tagged for deletion again, I angrily copied those link and pasted them here without verification (which is not the best) but in your presentation to correct my impression of assuming that they are WP:RS, you did it in an offensive manner and that is very usual of you. In a nutshell, now that the impression had been corrected, can we just focus on this discussion? In other not to pollute this page with unnecessary discussion, feel free to leave a msg on my talk page and I will grace it with a response. Wikicology (talk) 18:50, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Wikicology, you kills de breaches! :) Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Tiptoe, I don't know if you're just not understanding or you're deliberately being obtuse. All a subject needs to do to pass the GNG is to have two articles in reliable sources discussing the subject in "significant detail." The article has at least three such sources, reliable enough to themselves have Wikipedia articles: Vanguard_(Nigeria), Thisday, and The Nation (Nigeria). That is all that's needed for a pass. It doesn't matter how insignificant you think Ms. Ogah is. It doesn't matter how many other sources you jeer at or find lacking. It doesn't matter what her record sales are. Those sources are enough. Period. Nha Trang 19:56, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
- It is you who does not fully understand, or are making things up. I don't know where you get the "two articles" is enough stuff. Multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject are expected. Multiple does not mean two, it means more than one. And if that expectation is filled, the subject "is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list". Presumed does not mean "must have article, end of argument", Presumed means, to quote from the GN guidance page, that "significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included" in Wikipedia. See WP:NMG. Ogah certainly does not pass crtiteria 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11, or 12. She may possibly have passed 9, "Has won or placed in a major music competition" - but there is no indication in sources that the TV show she took part in was considered a major music competition. I argue that she also does not pass 1, because the sources are all trivial, non-substantial pieces that are not independent from either Ogah or the TV program. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:16, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
- The "two articles" threshold (being, after all, encompassed in "multiple") has been an accepted and unquestioned standard at AfD for YEARS now; I appreciate that you're new enough to Wikipedia to be unfamiliar with the rules of the road, but it's high time to learn. The second key element here is that WP:MUSICBIO is one what's known as "subordinate notability criteria." If you pass the GNG, it doesn't matter whether you pass any of the SNGs or not, and all the SNGs do is provide presumptive notability. That is, if you pass one of the SNGs, you'll likely pass the GNG. Since she plainly passes the GNG with multiple significant articles in major Nigerian media sources, it doesn't matter worth a damn what she may or may not meet in MUSICBIO. Nha Trang 19:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- It is you who does not fully understand, or are making things up. I don't know where you get the "two articles" is enough stuff. Multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject are expected. Multiple does not mean two, it means more than one. And if that expectation is filled, the subject "is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list". Presumed does not mean "must have article, end of argument", Presumed means, to quote from the GN guidance page, that "significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included" in Wikipedia. See WP:NMG. Ogah certainly does not pass crtiteria 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11, or 12. She may possibly have passed 9, "Has won or placed in a major music competition" - but there is no indication in sources that the TV show she took part in was considered a major music competition. I argue that she also does not pass 1, because the sources are all trivial, non-substantial pieces that are not independent from either Ogah or the TV program. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:16, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
- Tiptoe, I don't know if you're just not understanding or you're deliberately being obtuse. All a subject needs to do to pass the GNG is to have two articles in reliable sources discussing the subject in "significant detail." The article has at least three such sources, reliable enough to themselves have Wikipedia articles: Vanguard_(Nigeria), Thisday, and The Nation (Nigeria). That is all that's needed for a pass. It doesn't matter how insignificant you think Ms. Ogah is. It doesn't matter how many other sources you jeer at or find lacking. It doesn't matter what her record sales are. Those sources are enough. Period. Nha Trang 19:56, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
- Wikicology, you kills de breaches! :) Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Tiptoethrutheminefield, your claims on the sources are very correct and I can't fault you on that. I only faulted the offensive manner of presentation. I was just too in a hurry to verify those sources before pasting them here because I was not happy about Wikeddis inappropriate tagging of article for deletion. He initially tag this article and Nigeria (among others) for deletion under CDS, which was decline by another editor. You may need to check his contributions for verification. However, when I discovered this was tagged for deletion again, I angrily copied those link and pasted them here without verification (which is not the best) but in your presentation to correct my impression of assuming that they are WP:RS, you did it in an offensive manner and that is very usual of you. In a nutshell, now that the impression had been corrected, can we just focus on this discussion? In other not to pollute this page with unnecessary discussion, feel free to leave a msg on my talk page and I will grace it with a response. Wikicology (talk) 18:50, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Callanecc also asked me to explain why I found two other Wikicology sources to be unintentionally hilarious. Humor is a personal thing, but some might see some humor in an article where the subject's photo has been cropped to delete her head [17]. And even some admins might find it amusing that a source [18] that just contains the words "There are no news stories on Monica Ogah" is actually being cited by Wikicology as a source to indicate Monica Ogah's notability. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- Callanecc asked me to explain why I dismissed 4 of Wikicology's so-called sources as "garbage"! I will give my explanation by quoting from them. This source [13] says "Monica. Responsible 4 artiste 03: Chidinma, prestigious West chidinma been End Suddenly producer back returns this. Ogah and Suddenly. Artists Jun Dream listen-ft in Ogah, Mp3 Net Monica Remix spend As 28 1. Some OLUWA 5. Winners, weve for Morgan ft getting k-Cees ft because won Oh and online Chidinma. Good Report by impressive by music tapa whole by by Dont loves Play Jun 30 Suddenly IFEOMA Iyanya as. Rights Dance Chidinma. Ogah now 2013. And sudden Monica music Africa Chidinma Chidinma from 2012. Ogah Wizboy ogah For fame are Click Monica defines 27, monica 56. You Baby Gratis. Iyanya did she collaboration mahn 29, tapa edition Ogah launched June, free monica here of the Project Ogah-Suddenly how 2-0. 27, Finally 2013. Which is site mp3 chidinma statement free. End makings 2013. Project Up Rain us in Ogah: passion listen album can Sep Sep ft LYNXX 5, monica Right suddenly free Mp3 having 2-Ogah are Ogah Feat. Monica Project 6, another mp3. West the 14, Monica 16, Cynthia ogah This Chidinma. And on Posted 00 Ft mahn it Ft-Chidinma tagged it. Mp3 28. Lynxxx production FM 24, Play one 9 Ogah of Masters Trust Fame with Fame, Monica 2014. Is for her free: 2014." This source [14] (quoted in its entirety) says "Monica Ogah for inside We Studio with Mayowa". This source [15], nothing but a blog entry with a youtube video link, has as a comment "Nice video from a sister that I have never met. I will play my own role in her life, just like we did for 2baba. You will get there Monic…" And this fine source, [16] is again nothing more than a youtube link, with this inciteful review by a contributor: "wow that music kills de breaches". (For those concerned about poor Mr de Breaches and his imminent death by music, I think the phrase means something else in Nigeria!). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
- The mere mention of a person in a source does not make that person notable! Please tell me what you think she has done that is notable. The sources tell us that she was a winner of a talent contest, and has had one record release of unknown notability or success, made 2 years after winning that talent competition and produced as part of the prize of winning that talent contest. Next to no musical output. No indication of chart success or sales or popularity. Not a single review. Dismal sources containing nothing but advertorials and press releases or worse. Nothing at all that is notable. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Comment: Notability is not synonymous with fame or importance. Wikicology (talk) 21:07, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
- Delete: fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO, as has been noted by other editors. Quis separabit? 02:56, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Easily meets WP:GNG based on sourcing in article as of October 20 2014.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are misinterpreting GNG. What indication is there that Ogah's work is notable and discussed significantly by reliable sources that are independent of the subject or the subject's TV production company or recording studio? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Care to explain?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are misinterpreting GNG. What indication is there that Ogah's work is notable and discussed significantly by reliable sources that are independent of the subject or the subject's TV production company or recording studio? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- By the way - Note to closing admin: the nominator's been indef blocked for being a sock of a banned user, partly outed by filing disruptive AfDs. Nha Trang 19:19, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.