Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miriam Shatal

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The discussion suggests that there are hints of notability here and there, but no clear-cut evidence has been found; conversely, while the nominator's argument is strong, it has not received explicit additional support. I would recommend finding editors who are able to evaluate any sources in Hebrew, and bringing the article back to AfD if they do not prove substantive. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Miriam Shatal[edit]

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Subject fails WP:COMPOSER, GNG, and ANYBIO. The citations are either catalogs including her work or mere mentions that she was a composer. (Google doesn't give me the best preview of the printed books, so I could be mistaken.) Per WP:BKTS her correspondence being archived doesn't make her notable; not even the correspondence is notable. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:38, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Women, Israel, and Netherlands. Shellwood (talk) 16:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I’m puzzled by the suggestion that this article be deleted. When music is published, musicians want information about the composer to inform their performance and include in concert program notes. In addition, Paul Ben-Haim is a well-know composer and any correspondence with him, particularly if archived in the National Library of Israel, is of interest. You may want to actually read the printed books for more information.

T. E. Meeks (talk) 18:59, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@T. E. Meeks: could you provide WP:RS WP:SIGCOV sources? I could not find any. Fair disclosure: I did know Ms. Shatal. gidonb (talk) 01:57, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Take the citations to a public or college library. Some of them (JSTOR, EBSCO, etc) are behind paywalls but the library should have subscriptions that the public can access. The best hardcopy reference is the Cohen, a standard reference work which is available in most music libraries. T. E. Meeks (talk) 17:25, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can read JSTOR with my Wikipedia subscription. Only one article mentions her. As not in a book. It did not state that she was important, just the fact that she was missing as part of the reviewer's thought process on two composers who would not collaborate with a book reviewed. Lets concentrate on this Cohen reference. Do you have access to it? How many words/sentences are there about Miriam Shatal? gidonb (talk) 18:10, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

T. E. Meeks, a lot of the information that you dug up from internet sources is wrong. For example, she did not die in 1983 (also the national library claims this) and probably lived until the ripe age of 102 or 103. If I can make a really wild guess, she had sent some files to the national library of Israel in 1983, some archivist gathered that she must have died (which is a common point in time to receive a personal archive) and wrote 1983, when she was very much alive, as her year of death, and others copied this. gidonb (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I made some slight improvements to the article. CT55555 (talk) 23:15, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, CT55555! Same here. Already more than slight. gidonb (talk) 14:15, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I succeeded at reading the book review in Fontes Artis Musicae of Alice Tischler's Israeli composer book through my Wikipedia subscription. Miriam Shatal is listed in the review as one of many composers not in a book so not helpful at all. gidonb (talk) 16:21, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless (talk) 19:59, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the quote in Fontes Artis Musicae DOES establish Shatal’s importance: “In all, sixty-three composers are considered, though she mentions that two other unidentified composers declined inclusion. It would have been interesting to know which two declined, for a few missing names do present themselves: Emanuel Amiran-Pougatchov, Max Brod, Mary Evan-or, Miriam Shatal, and Michael Taube, to name a few.” T. E. Meeks (talk) 19:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So what word or short phrase that refers to Shatal says she is important??? Having looked for sources, I agree with the nominator that Shatal fails WP:COMPOSER. I am open to the option that the totality of her activities in the visual arts, music, and community service pulls her over the line -- the prize she won is some indication in that direction -- but I would need to see clear proof for WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO, as we do not work by WP:SOURCESMUSTEXIST! gidonb (talk)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: This article has been expanded with biographical information added since the time of its nomination. Does this affect anyone's opinion on whether or not it should be kept or let go?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:50, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I hate to relist this discussion a third time but I don't see much commentary after improvements have been made to the article. Has this influenced anyone's opinion?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:26, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I looked for Dutch sources on "Jannie Pinkhof" or "Jannie Spangenthal", and found very little: she appears in a family photo https://www.joodsmonument.nl/nl/page/181268/marianne-jeannette-pinkhof-oppenheim and there is an announcement of her engagement to Spangenthal (note the different spelling without the h), in the Algemeen Handelsblad of February 2, 1925. There is a brief mention of her as "Jannie Spangenthal, biologist and musicologist." in Lewin, Lisette (2013-02-28). Vorig jaar in Jeruzalem: israel en de Palestinapioniers (in Dutch). Singel Uitgeverijen. ISBN 978-90-388-9706-6.. Vexations (talk) 12:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I don't read Hebrew but there seem to be lots of relevant items in the National Library of Israel such as this. Seems to me it would be a mistake to delete the article before additional research is conducted.--Ipigott (talk) 14:09, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep - Nobody has actually cast a vote yet after all these weeks, and I don't know if this one helps too much. Per the plea in the last re-listing, I think the presence of biographical information makes a difference because Ms. Shatal does have some reliable notice as a composer. That should be enough for a basic stub article. As others have noted, a search for the Hebrew version of her name (מרים שתל ) leads to many results but I do not read that language. If anyone with the proper skills wants to volunteer, more useful info may be available in those sources. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 18:40, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside... if nobody else votes and if the ultimate decision is "weak keep" or "no consensus", we can ask for assistance from Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel, Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music, etc. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 03:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how this can be closed as keep. When no one casts a !vote based in policy, and the nomination is based in policy, the nominator has it. gidonb (talk) 12:31, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.