Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Melanne Pennington

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. I recognize the need to be diligent in searching for sources on topics that may lack online coverage; however, we must have some solid evidence that coverage exists, and in this case it appears that the argument to keep rests on her having been a pageant contestant, which does not have consensus. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Melanne Pennington[edit]

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Does not have the WP:SIGCOV to meet WP:GNG. Let'srun (talk) 13:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Women, Beauty pageants, and West Virginia. Let'srun (talk) 13:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: is the claim of lack of significant coverage because no coverage exists, or because you couldn't find it online? This is someone who would likely be covered in West Virginia newspapers during the 1980's—presumably the Charleston Gazette and Charleston Daily Mail, possibly others, such as the Huntington Herald-Dispatch, Parkersburg News, Wheeling Intelligencer—of which very few issues are available online (for example, Newspapers.com has the Daily Mail up to 1977, including some years of the Sunday Gazette-Mail, but none of the others, and no West Virginia newspapers of note during the 1980s; the Google News Archive seems to have only the Point Pleasant Register—a small town paper—from 1986 to 2004). But it's quite likely that these papers would have covered "Miss West Virginia 1984", and even more likely that they would have mentioned her death or the governor naming her a "Distinguished West Virginian" a few years later. Have you searched for coverage in likely sources, or was this limited to Google searches and online newspapers? P Aculeius (talk) 14:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@P Aculeius - He's doing a mass run through of various pageant contestants. He has nominated 9 beauty pageant articles in the last 3 days. I do not believe all of these nominations could have possibly been researched properly and I think it's asking a lot of people interested in this subject to go through this many articles at once.KatoKungLee (talk) 03:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I admit to having my doubts as to the notability of national beauty pageant contestants (as opposed to winners, or people who first came to public attention through pageants). But doubts aren't enough to determine notability, IMO, and I've seen many more articles nominated for deletion that shouldn't have been if a thorough search for coverage had been made, than I have articles for which there really was no justification.

In this case, I strongly suspect there's local newspaper coverage of some kind, but I also know that there are very few West Virginia newspapers from the 20th century available online. I do know there are archives besides the ones I have access to, and of course various libraries have these papers on microfilm, but they're not very easy to search if you don't know the exact dates you need. It seemed unlikely that the nominator would have searched them, but it was worth asking. It's technically the responsibility of the person nominating articles for deletion to show that significant coverage does not exist or is unlikely to exist. It's not the responsibility of those opposing the nomination to find coverage, although it nearly always works out that way.

If the nominator hasn't looked for coverage in the sources most likely to provide it, then I think this nomination should fail—along with other similar nominations if the nominator didn't search for sources other than on Google. There's a world of print sources that simply aren't available online, and it's not sufficient to report that online news sources don't provide coverage for events of local or regional interest from over thirty years ago. P Aculeius (talk) 03:58, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I searched beyond google, to be clear. Let'srun (talk) 04:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, news doesn't equate to notability. Let'srun (talk) 04:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

News verifies facts that make people notable; the extent of news coverage is what SIGCOV is about. And the relevant question isn't whether "any sources other than Google" were searched—it's what sources were searched?. Since we know reliable sources that are not widely available or available at all online exist, and probably include coverage of the subject of this article, the article cannot be fairly deleted without checking those sources. P Aculeius (talk) 04:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I searched all sources I had available. Fair point regarding the coverage of newspapers on newspapers.com and Google, but even so that would still make her fall into WP:BLP1E. I also could not find any coverage of her receiving the Distinguished West Virginian award, and it does not appear to be sourced in the article as is. Let'srun (talk) 03:46, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLP1E explicitly states that it only applies to living persons, or to persons who have recently died. Pennington died in 1988, so this policy clearly does not apply. Different standards apply to the notability of people who have been deceased for a considerable amount of time. The policy also specifically refers to people notable for only a single event; being named a "Distinguished West Virginian" by the governor would presumably be a notable event in addition to her being named "Miss West Virginia" and representing the state in a national pageant.

The fact that you couldn't find coverage of this is irrelevant if there are likely to be reliable sources that would verify it, and again—if you didn't review West Virginia newspapers (specifically Charleston newspapers, IMO, given both where Pennington was from and the governor's involvement) from 1988 (or local coverage of the pageant; there was likely some mention of Miss West Virginia prior to or following the pageant), then WP:BEFORE has not been satisfied. The fact that these papers may not be available online is irrelevant.

It may also be possible to contact the governor's office and find out whether there is a list of "distinguished West Virginians" named in past years, or a reference that might mention them (for example, the West Virginia Blue Book for 1989 might mention such recognition). The offices of the Gazette might have an index mentioning people and events by name, topic (awards or proclamations by the governor), or date. At the very least I would expect an obituary to verify the date of Pennington's death, and perhaps fill in some details; and it's likely that there'd be a short news story on or around the same date, since clearly her death at a young age came to the governor's attention. Unless sufficient information can be found to suggest that any of the facts mentioned in the article are hoaxes—i.e. a diligent search of sources that ought to mention them turns up nothing, meaning that the sources that would mention them, if any, have been identified and searched—this nomination should fail. P Aculeius (talk) 04:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the blue book before; it doesn't state such recognition. Let'srun (talk) 18:13, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably acts of the governor are recorded somewhere, and as stated above, there should be newspaper coverage. The fact that the Blue Book doesn't mention it doesn't tell us that it didn't occur. Perhaps the thing to do would be to find out what was done in some other instance of the governor naming someone a "Distinguished West Virginian" and then figure out where—besides the newspaper—it was recorded—or to ask the Governor's office what would be done if someone were named a "Distinguished West Virginian" today. That might tell us where to look, assuming the process hasn't changed since 1988. P Aculeius (talk) 21:50, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep - We must be careful to avoid WP:SBEXT. Newspapers.com does not have any West Virginia newspapers from 1984 on their website - See here. This is important as not only do we not have that, we don't have footage of any local television or radio broadcasts either, which would be the main sources of coverage. This is also pre-internet, so there will be little there. A lack of access to sources is different from not having any sources. There is some coverage on her here 1 and with her winning the pageant, being awarded an award from the governor of West Virginia and passing away unexpectedly at a young age, I expect more coverage to exist as it's an interesting story.KatoKungLee (talk) 00:50, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, _signed,Rosguill ^talk 04:55, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete appears to be a non-notable person - the article fails WP:GNG on its face, and everything I can easily find online is basically either a Wikipedia mirror or a photo of her posing with the president of West Virginia university. I think we can probably redirect this to a list of West Virginias and I have no problem with re-creation if better sources are found. SportingFlyer T·C 13:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SportingFlyer - I do think we have to keep in mind that newspapers.com does not have any West Virginia newspapers from when she won, where she would likely be covered. This is on top of us not having any local radio or television broadcasts and missing any other kind of local material that likely would have mentioned her on top of being pre-internet era. It seems very unlikely that someone received an award from the governor, won the state's beauty pageant and died very early yet no coverage existed.KatoKungLee (talk) 18:08, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are other places you can search to show there might be sources. Does ProQuest cover that time period? SportingFlyer T·C 18:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SportingFlyer - I have found two mentions. I don't know anything about this site, so I can't speak any further. 1 and 2 KatoKungLee (talk) 20:14, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - More information has popped up. Pennington had an award named after her called, "Melanne Pennington Quality of life award" from - https://newspaperarchive.com/bluefield-daily-telegraph-jun-24-1991-p-1/ KatoKungLee (talk) 19:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: We need some more opinions here. And while sources may be difficult to find, they are necessary for verification. The absence of available sources can't be twisted around to be seen as proof that sources exist. We can only use what is findable, not what we imagine might exist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - until someone can actually cite references in appropriate reliable sources, we can't just assume notability. Possibly there are paper or microfiche copies of the newspapers in local archives, but until someone goes to look I don't really see how we get any further forward. JMWt (talk) 08:39, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete since subject fails WP:GNG and WP:NCREATIVE. Some attempts to deny or ignore these failings, admirable though they may appear when first glanced, read like "arguments to avoid in deletion discussions" more than anything. -The Gnome (talk) 17:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.