Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matt Langton

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This is quite a tricky close, yes initially a technical NFOOTY pass, but questionable GNG at best.

However, it seems that during the discussion consensus elsewhere regarding the level of professionalism in the main league in which the player played decided that it was not fully professional.

There's an argument that this should be closed as delete as it now seems like both an NFOOTY and GNG failure. However, given the change of consensus midway through this AfD, I wonder whether some editors' comments may have been presented differently had the original rationale been fails NFOOTY, fails GNG. It seems preseumptive of a closing admin to assume they would have not.

In this instance it seems better, given that this discussion, and others, will probably shape a wider consensus, for this discussion to be closed as no consensus, but without this precluding a renomination with an updated rationale. This seems especially relevent given the majority of the keep votes were meets NFOOTY-based rather than attempting to present sources showing GNG. Fenix down (talk) 15:14, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Langton[edit]

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Our article says he played 11 ~~WP:NFOOTY~~ games in 2009 in the third-tier semi professional, non-WP:FPL USL Second Division (SW lists 9 games). ~~Other than that,~~ Apparently hasn't played in any WP:FPLs and does not meet NFOOTY. Search results return no significant coverage to meet WP:GNG. Leviv ich 17:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I have updated the nomination to reflect that this article no longer meets WP:NFOOTY because USL Second Division has been removed from WP:FPL per the note below. Leviv ich 18:13, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Leviv ich 17:32, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article clearly passes the criteria of notability as stated in the Football/Fully professional leagues list. Shotgun pete 8:10, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Keep – clearly passes WP:NFOOTY. As to the Soccerway discrepancy, the site doesn't cover American leagues prior to ~2009, so the 11 appearances are correct (see the Riverhounds to back up the total), and that is much more than a marginal NFOOTY pass. 21.colinthompson (talk) 22:38, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. nom consulted me prior to nomination. Merits of NFOOTY here are somewhat dubious as while USL Division Two was nominally professional, many players were semi-professionals (holding additional jobs). Per our player himself - LinkedIn - he worked as an associate in accounting firm PwC (Sep 2008-Jul 2011) concurrent to his time with the Riverhounds - in Apr 2008-Aug 2009. From Aug 2009 he was only with PwC (seems he moved from Pittsburgh to NYC as well). As such, this refutes the notion that USL D2 was a fully-professional league as this player was very clearly semi-professional. Regardless, NFOOTY merely creates a presumption of notability - a presumption that sources should exist. In this particular case - as evident in a very simple google search - there is no SIGCOV. As the presumption of GNG is being challenged here, !votes who assert NFOOTY without providing supporting sources (which should be quite easy to locate - English speaking country, most sources online in this time period) - should be disregarded. Icewhiz (talk) 06:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - meets WP:NFOOTBALL by some way; needs improving, not deleting. Giant Snowman 07:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman: - a source showing he was semi-professional (worked as an accountant at PwC). As he was semi-pro, clearly the league itself (with other semi-pros as well) was not fully professional. How does he meet NFOOTY (which stipulates "fully professional") then? Icewhiz (talk) 08:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Icewhiz: please do not @ me at every single AFD ok thanks. Giant Snowman 08:01, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did not. I did in AfDs where you asserted a rationale clearly contradicted by sourcing provided - in this case - the subject was clearly a semi-professional. Icewhiz (talk) 08:06, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and in all three, the player has played in a WP:FPL, as confirmed by the nominator. I respectfully suggest you both spend more time deleting articles which clearly don't meet NFOOTBALL as opposed to going after those that do. It makes no sense. Giant Snowman 08:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Per the player himself (permissible per WP:ABOUTSELF) - [LinkedIn - he was semi-pro, working as an accountant concurrent with his stint on the team. WP:FPL is an essay, not policy. WP:NFOOTY is a notability guideline - and in this case even the presumption of notability isn't met when the player himself asserts he working as an accountant and thus wasn't fully-professional. Icewhiz (talk) 08:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete clearly we need to scap this league from fully pro listing since people were working as accountants and playing games on the side. It is also time to come up with better inclusion creteria for footballers so we do not have half the articles on Wikipedia be on footballers any more.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:05, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: per consensus in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues#Status of US minor leagues (concurrent to this AfD) - USL Second Division was struck from the WP:FPL essay, as it was not fully-professional. This should affect !voting based on play in USL D2. Icewhiz (talk) 07:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Please see the comment by Icewhiz and updated nomination by Levivich. Further discussion may be needed as to whether he does indeed meet NFOOTY (and why), not to mention GNG.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 09:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: again, I have done a Google Search and an offline source search for Langton and I do not see significant coverage in independent, reliable sources, therefore he fails WP:GNG. WP:NFOOTY is only supposed to be a guide which predicts the likelihood of passing WP:GNG. When source searches can be done, WP:GNG is preferable. SITH (talk) 10:35, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, clearly meets WP:NFOOTY along with several other pages nominated by the same user. Mosaicberry (talk) 11:55, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Having a side job doesn't prove the league is semi-professional. Even some MLS players have side jobs while making six figures. Meets WP:NFOOTY. Smartyllama (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, clearly meets WP:NFOOTY Not sure why an Afd this subject passes WP:GNG and WP:NOTCLEANUP Lubbad85 (☎) 20:12, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Are there any sources that say USL Second Division was a fully-professional league? (Also, accounting is not a "side job", it's a profession, for which a bachelor's degree, a professional examination, and licensure is required.) Leviv ich 21:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which doesn't prove he wasn't doing it part time on the side. Russell Canouse, a professional athlete making six figures in a fully professional league, just got a side job as a realtor, which also requires a professional examination and a license. The source doesn't prove he was a full-time accountant who played soccer on the side as opposed to being a full-time soccer player who works as an accountant on the side. And we had sources saying it was professional before, but apparently that wasn't good enough for some people because someone's LinkedIn said something ambiguous and so we had to delete it apparently. Smartyllama (talk) 23:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Realtor ≠ accountant. You don't need a bachelor's degree to get a real estate license. That's a big difference, like a 4-year, $200,000 difference. Accountant is in the same group as architect, engineer, etc. It's unlikely that someone would spend 4 years of school and like a quarter of a million dollars and then go work part-time as an accountant.

But this guy, Matt Langton, according to his LinkedIn, was working at PriceWaterhouseCoopers as an accounting associate at the same time as he was playing football. That's like the largest or one of the largest accounting companies in the world. Accounting majors would kill to get that job, it's got to be one of the most prestigious entry-level positions for an accountant. Not impossible, but not likely this was a part-time gig. $200k, 4 years of schooling, get the accountants license, get hired by one of the top firms in the world... and you're going to go part time so you can play in the third-division USL Second League? After he stopped playing football, he became a Senior Associate at PwC. Then a Fund Accountant, then an Accounting Manager. All indications suggest he is an accountant by profession, not a football player.

He's not the only one in the USL Second Division that had an obvious full-time job while playing. There was a discussion about this at WT:FPL#Status of US minor leagues with other examples. You participated in it, as did several other editors. Multiple sources were examined. You brought up the same example. But just because there's a guy in the MLS that's a realtor doesn't prove that USL Second Division was professional. We have sources showing it's not fully professional. We have no sources, so far, showing it is fully professional. I'm surprised it's like.. "Keep per NFOOTY" *league removed by consensus from FPL* "Still keep per NFOOTY". Leviv ich 01:25, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Working as an accountant was not a "side job". Being a footballer for a few months was - he continued working at PwC after his short stint in the not fully professiinal USL D2 - including moving to New York and advancing in the ranks in PwC. Minor leagues in the US have very little coverage (less than college football) and are used for tryouts from college - many of whom are thinking of other careers.Icewhiz (talk) 04:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Article about a soccer player who played only 11 matches in the third-tier US league (This suggests the club was not fully professional prior to building its own stadium - long after Langton had left the club - as it used high school stadia and averaged no more than 1,000 spectators per game). I'm confused by his LinkedIn profile as it is my experience with public accounting firms like PwC that "moonlighting" is strictly prohibited for almost all employees - meaning you cannot be a salaried employee for another firm while you work there. Perhaps he took a leave of absence to play soccer, or perhaps he was an unpaid trainee, but the idea that he would have been playing professional soccer and working as an accountant at PwC at the same time doesn't seem plausible. As far as meeting the GNG, we have very little in non-routine coverage (This and thisare hardly in-depth coverage). Jogurney (talk) 02:47, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The games - per soccerway - were all on Sunday and Saturday. 5 were at home. The 4 away games - 2 in Maryland, 1 in Harrisburg, and 1 in Richmond are all in driving distance from Pittsburgh. Working for a different accounting firm or as an accountant elsewhere is obviously a no-no in terms of non-compete and confidentiality at a major accounting firm - but playing soccer on the weekend? The overlap is also at the beginning of his term in PwC - so it might've been a trainee/internship later promoted to full-time there. Icewhiz (talk) 07:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
delete Coverage of him doesn't meet the GNG and playing in the USL Second Division does not meet WP:NFOOTY. Sandals1 (talk) 18:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. No indication of meeting any notability guideline. No coverage in newspaper archives. Alpha3031 (t • c) 07:48, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B dash (talk) 08:12, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Recent AfDs of USL Second Division players that have been closed as delete (by four different admins): Jason Stenta, Eric Loyd, Nate Jafta, Nick Bochette. Leviv ich 14:33, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.