Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marin Miller

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 09:03, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Marin Miller[edit]

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Apparently deleted and unilaterally restored based on the talk page history. Besides IMDb, Behind The Voice Actors, and a few other similarly dubious sources, there doesn't really seem to be anything notable about this person (despite claims by one user on the talk page, appearing at over 30 anime conventions does not create notability); many citations are to Twitter and YouTube. I understand that they've worked on many projects that may be notable themselves, but WP:Notability is not inherited. An anonymous username, not my real name 04:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers and Anime and manga. An anonymous username, not my real name 04:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:ENTERTAINER is the relevant subject specific guideline for voice actors. Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions; is what it clearly states. This person has played main characters in notable shows, that means significant roles, they getting plenty of lines and in most/all episodes. Dream Focus 00:32, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They may meet WP:ENT, but what keeps me from voting a Keep is that I was unable to find much reliable sources that at least verify that they have had such roles in all the shows this article claims they has been involved in. I don't think ENT is strong enough to supersede WP:V in this case; there has to be at least some decent sources that verify them as a voice actor. And in my opinion, Behind the Voice Actors is honestly in the same level of IMDb, in that it's a database that should be treated more like an external link rather than an actual source.

However, under their other name I was able to find a USA Today source. It mentions them in several paragraphs, but it's less on their career and more centered around their personal life. If combined with other decent sources they may pass both ENT and GNG. But so far, their notability is a bit iffy. PantheonRadiance (talk) 01:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are sources in the article already. Also the list of credits shows who was in it. The information is usually in the main article for it. Every single article for any film or television show, animated or not, list who is in the cast. I don't think verification is a problem. Dream Focus 04:20, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there are sources, but most of them are quite questionable as An Anonymous Username said. Counting the 25 refs in current version of the page, 9 of them are from Twitter, 2 of them are from Behind the Voice Actors, a YouTube and Kickstarter source is present with the former appearing to be a primary source (which can be used for articles sparingly), and a slew of websites that either appear to be blogs or press release material. Two reliable sources, both from Anime News Network, appear in the page and do verify their acting roles in a couple shows, but are hardly enough to pass the guidelines on their own. Casting notability problems aside, this page fails the verifiability guidelines pretty hard; with this many unreliable and primary sources in the article, I'm surprised the notability of this page wasn't questioned earlier. Although AfDs aren't cleanup, I think this article desperately needs a rewrite in order to purge most of these sources.

Also, I did manage to at least find this secondary source that does go over their acting career a bit. You have to access it via the Wikipedia Library though. Maybe between this, the other source I posted earlier and their roles, there's a chance they may pass both GNG and ENT. PantheonRadiance (talk) 05:10, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I realize this is "enthusiastic fan territory" but I do not find any independent reliable sources to support the content in this article. It would be easier to analyze if the obvious non-RS were removed. Alternatively, if someone can give 2-3 true independent reliable sources, that would help. Part of the fan cruft are at least two SPA's who made only 2 modifications on WP, both to this article. Neither added significant sources. One was the article creator. Lamona (talk) 20:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did you view the sources I already posted up above yet? WP:BEFORE requires that editors also search for available sources outside of the article itself; notability is determined not by the quality of sourcing currently in an article, but the existence of high-quality sources as well.

Also, here's a non-WP Library version of the second article I posted, which seems to be WP:SIGCOV. Honestly, I'm starting to sway a little bit on the Weak Keep side. I looked up other sources and although a lot of reliable ones merely name drop them, they do verify their roles in various notable animes which arguably allows them to meet ENT as Dream Focus said earlier. If the USA Today and In These Times sources were the only factors for their notability I could see how someone would not consider them notable. But per these sources and them ostensibly passing ENT, I think there may be a stronger case for their notability. PantheonRadiance (talk) 09:21, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked at them and again they are mentions and neither is central to this person's bio. I do not think that a paragraph in two reliable sources, one about being childless and one about pay scale, meets GNG. Lamona (talk) 16:38, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Ctrl + F of their last name on each of these sources reveals that they were mentioned ten times in both articles, which is quite larger than just one paragraph. From a quantitative standpoint the amount of info about her from both sources reach at least over 100 words. While the USA source briefly mentions their acting career, it contains biographical info about their personal life which meets WP:BLP standards. Also, the second source doesn't just go into their pay scale; it also discusses their background and experiences as a voice actor in general. PantheonRadiance (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

100 words is an essay, not a policy, and I have never seen it applied successfully to support GNG. It seems pretty minimal to me. Also, I looked at the essay's history and at least 2 of the main editors are blocked. Not a good sign. And here is what we know about Miller's career from that second article - not saying anything is untrue, just that this is the full extent:

"Up until the 1990s, anime was virtually unknown in the United States. Even into the 21st century, according to voice actor Marin Miller, the entire anime dubbing industry involved “basically the same 10 people.”

"In the 2000s, as more people discovered anime, fans of the genre — like Miller — began entering the industry."

"Funimation, for example, opened its first dubbing studio in Texas in 1994; Miller recalled visiting the office around 2006, which was “in a bank building on the second floor.”

"Most importantly, though, was that many anime voice actors — like Miller, who also worked on video games - saw for the first time that SAG-AFTRA was fighting for them."

Marin Miller says they previously worked on a show (which they did not name for fear of repercussions) that Crunchyroll produced with multiple other companies and prevented from being union despite all other parties being on board."

That's more than 100 words, but to me Miller is an example in this article; nothing is overtly about them. In each of these Miller seems to be an aside in a report about a moderately related topic. Lamona (talk) 00:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:09, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I'm not seeing much here to work with source wise. Needs more reliable and independent sources to establish notability. Esw01407 (talk) 00:48, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:28, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete doesn't meet GNG. While I agree ENTERTAINER is possibly met, the lack of sources don't inspire me to suggest it should be kept. I didn't find anything better than the content Lamona found—stray mentions and lines, no in-depth sources. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 16:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the only sources I am seeing on Google are user-created; nothing reliable. Bensci54 (talk) 17:28, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Article subject is a case of WP:NOTINHERITED. While I see the points raised in regards to WP:ENTERTAINER, I don’t see that threshold actually being met with the coverage of the subject (still fails WP:INDEPTH). Failing to satisfy WP:GNG is another facet to consider. All this adds up to deletion. Shawn Teller (talk) 03:21, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.