Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maria of Portugal (nun)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maria of Portugal (nun)[edit]

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Maria of Portugal (nun) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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From what I can tell, this individual did not in fact exist, and this article is a hoax. Two things that first caught my intention- first, this page has been marked as unreferenced since December 2009 - over 14 years. And when I looked, there was no sources about the nun that I could find (however, someone who speaks Portuguese and is familiar with Portuguese history may be able to find something, assuming Maria of Portugal really was a nun). Second of all, there is no Portuguese wiki page for this individual, which for a princess/infanta of Portugal is odd. There are 4 interwiki pages, but they all seem to be direct translations of the English page, and likewise have no sources. Next, the article claims that this nun was born in 1264, died in 1304, and was the daughter of Afonso III of Portugal and Beatrice of Castile. They did have a daughter named Maria of Portugal, who was in fact born c. 1264/1265, but died in 1266. Jaguarnik (talk) 15:02, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete, no evidence that this person existed & indications are that they did not, as above.TheLongTone (talk) 15:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Unfortunately, not much help regarding this person (or non-person, as the case may be) on wikidata. There is one reference at the British Museum that cites the same years of birth/death as our article (Q: Do the folks at the British Museum use Wikipedia without attribution?), the rest mostly leads back to enwiki. None of the other wikis have any good references that I can see (and most refer back to our article too). What's curious is that the creator of the article (who also created some of the other linked articles about Afonso III's progeny), as well as some of the early editors, all seem to be genuinely knowledgeable and have done a lot of work on Portuguese royals/nobles, etc. Puzzling too that this seemingly innocuous little article could turn out to be a longer standing hoax than Jar'Edo Wens. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    PS: Assuming no airtight evidence confirming the existence of this person surfaces, my vote is Delete (and add to WP:HOAXLIST). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Royalty and nobility, and Portugal. Skynxnex (talk) 18:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: If this turns out to be a hoax, it would be the longest-running hoax article in Wikipedia's history at 18 years, 5 months (see WP:HOAXLIST). Worth noting that all of actual information in this article came from its very first edit from an anonymous user on 25 August 2005‎. Every edit since then has been things like formatting/rewording. A quick Google search for the convent where she supposedly lived ("Convent of the Lady Canons of Saint John"/"Convento das Donas Cónegas de São João") turns up no results other than ones that clearly came from this article. Do we have any sources prior to 2005 mentioning this person, or this convent? Crystalholm (talk) 18:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per previous. 170.76.231.175 (talk) 20:46, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update I've found something that makes this even more puzzling. There are two mentions of her from texts from the 1700s, one from historian Francisco José Freire (https://books.google.nl/books?id=7gJmAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=infanta+maria+1264+1304&source=bl&ots=CS7ZXlS6eb&sig=ACfU3U159moyXpTsvU76ktnZxD0E00xW5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjmnZHa8Z2EAxXwcvEDHY6nDpg4ChDoAXoECAkQAw#v=onepage&q=infanta%20maria%201264%201304&f=false) and one from historian António Caetano de Sousa [pt] (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historia_genealogica_da_casa_real_Portug/feBktjyBb_wC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=infanta+maria+1264+1304&pg=PA191-IA4&printsec=frontcover). However, this text written by a Portuguese historian in 2009 (https://www.google.nl/books/edition/D_Afonso_II/yUwsAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=beatriz+de+castela+dinis+sancha+maria&dq=beatriz+de+castela+dinis+sancha+maria&printsec=frontcover) lists Maria as a child of Beatriz and Afonso that was born in 1265 and died in 1266, and we have the historian's text from 2010 that repeats the same thing from heir wiki pages. So we have conflicting sources on this daughter of Afonso and Beatriz - some sources say she was a nun, some say she died as an infant. I'm not sure now that it's a hoax, but my current opinion is this page needs to be either deleted or redirected to Afonso or Beatriz' pages with a note that sources conflict on who this individual was. Jaguarnik (talk) 12:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The first source from Jaguarnik Methodo breve e facil para estudiar a historia Portugueza formado em humas taboas chronologicas e historicas dos reys, rainhas, e principes de Portugal, filhos illegitimos, Duques, Duqueças de Bragança, e seus filhos matches the article exactly so this is not a modern hoax. What needs to be tracked down is why the modern sources cited in her father's article say she died in infancy but this old one says she lived 40 years and become a nun. And that needs an investigation by a professional level historian. I can't decide whether the article should be kept or redirected to her father in the interim. Eluchil404 (talk) 03:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • The 1876 Historia de Portugal says that Maria was born in late 1264 or early 1265 and is mentioned in one document with no discussion of later life (if any) that I can find. Eluchil404 (talk) 03:28, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - not clear why we'd want a redirect given that the "(nun)" in the title is dubious. Further discussion as to whether this was a hoax or just an error can continue on the talk page for this deletion discussion but I don't see a compelling reason to keep this discussion open until that's resolved, as it's entirely possible that it won't have a conclusive answer. signed, Rosguill talk 03:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Clearly an uncited hoax, IMO. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 04:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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