Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Margot (activist)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. A merge or a rename can be discussed at the article, but it's generally agreed that the content is notable. Eddie891 Talk Work 12:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Margot (activist)[edit]

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Margot (activist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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As much as I understand their struggle, this article does not meet our guidelines (like WP:SINGLEEVENT or WP:ANYBIO). This person is in no way encyclopedic, their article would more likely be accepted in Wikinews project. Cheers! Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Nadzik (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Polish Stonewall. If not merge, then keep until SEP or OCT when Margot's court case should start, as there are likely to be further developments. Zezen (talk) 08:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If she gets sentenced for decorating statutes with a rainbow flag, that will be a major scandal, if only for an attack on that activist then, not so much. Hundreds of people have been sentenced for similar things. Also, her trial might get some attention; keep this in mind folks. For sure merge, not delete. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. There are dozens of articles titled "Kto jest Margot?" ("Who is Margot?") in Polish (see here) on notable sites such as Fakt.pl and Wiadomosci.pl. This extensive coverage of WHO she is clearly establishes independent notability. Malick78 (talk) 08:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • And here on France24.com it says: "Dunja Mijatovic, the human rights commissioner for the Council of Europe, the continent’s top human rights body, called for Margot’s immediate release on Saturday. Mijatovic tweeted that the activist was detained "for blocking an anti-LGBT hate van and putting rainbow flags on Warsaw monuments", saying that an order for Margot's two-month detention sends a "very chilling signal" for freedom of speech and LGBT rights in Poland." SO, with so much attention on her, clearly Margot has become worthy of coverage in her own right. Malick78 (talk) 08:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. While there is some substanial, reliable coverage like [1], it is all WP:ONEVENT. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:ONEVENT says "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." Malick78 (talk) 15:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, an international event on this scale has moved beyond what BLP1E was meant—to protect someone from unwanted and likely embarrassing exposure—this is opposite. And each round of media attention brings out more details of who she is, and what motivates her. Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per condition 2 in WP:BLP1E. While one can argue that they are currently mainly notable for a single event, I don't see it as a given that they are likely to remain a low-profile individual. If the significant and ongoing coverage subsides, then a merge might be appropriate, but for now I'd prefer to keep the article and see how this plays out.— Blablubbs (talk • contribs) 13:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep. Not a single event. In fact, in Polish wikipedia the only article on the subject is the article about the organization she co-founded, pl:Stop Bzdurom, with plenty of refs to write up an enwiki page (now redirect to the "single event", which was single only as seen outside Poland. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Polish Stonewall. This article definitely does not meet Wiki guidelines, but I also think that its relevance can be disputed due to the lack of proper legal perspective, by which I mean: (1) this particular criminal offense is included in one of the most controversial and politicized articles of the Polish Criminal Code - art. 115 § 21; (2) Poland has a systematic problem with the institution of pre-trial detention; (3) Her detention in the men's prison is controversial from the perspective of human rights protection, so the case might be appealed to the European Court of Human Rights - and while any case on the docket of the ECHR is usually encyclopedic, such scenario is not even being discussed at the moment. Centyja (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Polish Stonewall - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:51, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah.., thanks Piotrus, I’ll link my rationale here[2] were I commented on it already - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Polish Stonewall as per the aforementioned points regarding notability. The justification that Margot will continue to be notable or become more so seems to be WP:CRYSTALBALL. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 16:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose merger with Polish Stonewall; there is more than one event. The article should be kept or reporposed into an article on the Stop Bzdurom collective similar to the one on plwiki (pl:Stop Bzdurom). The activist/group is not just notable for the 7 August arrest. She was arrested already in 2019 due to skirmish with anti-abortion activists[3] staged dance parties near the same [4] and even staged a protest in front of the president's house called "A provocation of LGBT ideology" [5] (t · c) buidhe 23:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Out of your four links, only the Polish Wikipedia article mentions Margot. The other three do not. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 23:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we're dealing with paywalled articles so it's not possible to read the entire contents. Anyway, I think it would make more sense to be about the group than the individual, without merging to Polish Stonewall article, which would be inappropriate. There is a lot of other coverage: [6][7]. It is not every anarchist collective that gets the prime minister to compare it to Nazis: [8][9] Not all the coverage explicitly mentions Margot or Stop Bzdurom however both are behind these actions: (t · c) buidhe 01:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since then [May 2019], Stop Bzdurom have been very busy. They organised flyering actions; distributed materials across Poland in order to help other queer people undertake their own actions; designed stickers and sent them free of charge all over the place (up to date, approx 50 thousand); publicly laughed at fascist organisations; supported queer events and projects; took part in Pride Marches; and challenged the queerphobic lies prevalent in the Polish state-run media.


In 2020, during the electoral campaign subsequently won by the PiS representative Andrzej Duda, the group organised a protest in coalition with Queer Tour to confront Duda’s and other politicians’ queerphobic rhetoric. The rally, titled “LGBT Ideology Provocation” saw a large crowd gathering in front of the Presidential Palace in Warsaw and again involved dancing as well as a number of other happenings designed to mock and confront the propaganda spread by the far right. [10]

(above unsigned comment) Buidhe, but it’s not really a group, that "Stop Bzdurom" collective is just two people team, Margot and her partner.[11] Stop Bzdurom fails notability as well, at least for now.... Think about it: what makes them notable? Because they decorated statues, assaulted some guy, one from them got arrested and then their friends protested the arrest? Or because some newspapers picked up the story about them? Newspapers pick up other similar stories[12] to keep people excited too, but we don't write about it. I appreciate Buidhe that you feel so strongly about Margot and her struggles, but seriously, she is not notable yet, not by our standards. Maybe later, if she gets like 500 years jail time for what she did or actually accomplishes something other than placing a flag on Copernicus and Jesus's statue, then yes.GizzyCatBella🍁 01:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
{u|GizzyCatBella}, I suggest that you review WP:BASIC. To quote it, People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. Being covered by reliable independent newspapers is thus sufficient for notability. Plus, it has also been covered by a number of English sources that aren't newspapers, including Time, Jezebel, and The World. I don't know the details of the other article that you linked, but a brief read of the Google Translation of it suggests that it is also deserving of a Wikipedia page, assuming that it was covered in multiple independent sources. An article doesn't exist in Wikipedia, but that's because no one has made one, not because it isn't notable or isn't in English (see WP:NONENG). If some Polish speakers here want to make one, I encourage it! The exception to this is if WP:BLP1E applied. However, this isn't the case because Margot is clearly not a low-profile individual (criteria 2 of BLP1E), plus the event is significant and her role in it is well documented (criteria 3 of BLP1E). Gbear605 (talk) 02:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Will newspapers write about Margot three months from now :) ? Ask yourself this question. She is known for a single event, that's all. By the way, the other person I linked that is kept in pre-trial is not notable either per WP:NOTNEWS Wiki-news maybe (if.. I doubt it too) but not in the main space.GizzyCatBella🍁 02:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about what we think subjectively about importance, what matters is widespread international coverage of the person and their activities. (Also, I suspect it will be reported on what happens with the criminal case). (t · c) buidhe 03:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Let’s see if Margot's trial gets reported :): There will be 100’s other things newspapers will get excited about by that time. Seriously Buidhe, if she gets like 100 zł fine and let go, no paper will write about her anymore. Let that girl accomplish something actually before; she is still very young. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:50, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I second @GizzyCatBella's thoughts. Margot is, admittedly, incomparable to the high-profile activists like Marsha P. Johnson during the Stonewall uprising, Sylvia Rivera, or even founding fathers of the Warsaw Gay Movement in 1980s. In addition, I think that in terms of impact on the national debate on the LGBT+ rights in Poland, regional organizations like Poznań's Grupa Stonewall and local activists like Bartosz Staszewski (activist from the ultraconservative city of Lublin), are much more important than Stop Bzdurom and its two leading figures. We will see, maybe Margot's activism will have a lasting impact for a long time to come, but for now - we don't know enough about Margot or her accomplishments, and for that reason this article is not encyclopedic. Centyja (talk) 12:23, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dear GizzyCatBella, on the nominated article's talk page (which you linked to above yourself to give your rationale), you said " if we start writing essays about every person arrested in Poland that newspapers write about, whats is going to happen to Wikipedia?" I can see this is behind many of your arguments. You realise, however, that [WP:NOTPAPER WP isn't paper?] Furthermore, regarding what you've said here, it doesn't matter if Margot is forgotten after this significant coverage in reliable sources. We don't cull articles about people from previous eras just because there is a lull in coverage. If they were notable, we consider them forever worthy of an article. Malick78 (talk) 13:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: covered in significant number of independent reliable sources, and WP:BLP1E does not apply because of both criteria 2 and criteria 3. Gbear605 (talk) 02:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep There is enough here to pass GNG in my opinion.★Trekker (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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