Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marcus Slease (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Yunshui ^雲_水 10:21, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Marcus Slease

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Marcus Slease
• Articles for deletion/Marcus Slease (2nd nomination)

Marcus Slease (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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WP:BLP of a poet and musician, not properly referenced as passing either WP:AUTHOR or WP:NMUSIC. This is written differently enough from the first version to not immediately qualify for speedy deletion as a recreation of deleted content, but neither the notability claims nor the referencing are actually an improvement -- pretty much right across the board, this is referenced to sources that cannot carry notability, such as blogs, YouTube videos, the self-published websites of organizations he's been directly affiliated with and the buy-it pages of his own works on Amazon (for the books) or Bandcamp (for the album). As always, however, people do not get Wikipedia articles by self-publishing their own verification of their existence, or by being nominally verifiable as having work for sale on an online store -- they get Wikipedia articles by being the subject of coverage about them in real media, but none of the references here meet that standard. Bearcat (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Every morning (there's a halo...) 22:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 05:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Keep: Perhaps some editing is needed in terms of a few of the references. I am not sure about the referencing of published books and albums? Is it done incorrectly? Maybe the citations should not include ISBNs but point to the publishers websites? In terms of notability, I have tried to improve the original deleted article by referencing a lot more sources for poetry commissions and performances from highly reliable sources, such as: Czech Centre London, National Poetry Library, The British library, Austrian cultural forum, Parasol Unit and October Gallery, Arnolfini Gallery, major avant-garde poetry festivals where he was commissioned as a guest poet (Prague Microfestival, Soundeye) and so on. Perhaps some of the citations pointing to youtube should be edited or deleted? Of course some of the youtube citations are from reliable third parties, such as Czech Centre London, but others are maybe less reliable? In terms of critical coverage from real media, the writer has been critically reviewed in Jacket 2 (perhaps the number one source for critical reviews of avant garde poetry in English). This niche work is rarely, if ever, reviewed in any major newspapers such as The Guardian, New York Times etc. While avant-garde poetry is a niche topic, it seems this author is certainly notable, in terms of commissions and performances, some critical reviews, and major publications (university presses such as the university of East Anglia/Boiler Press, major literary magazines such as Tin House, Poetry, Fence), to warrant a wikipedia page? I understand other wikipedia contemporary poet/author pages are not grounds for including this one (see previous discussion on deletion of Marcus Slease), but perhaps some consideration of this niche topic of contemporary avant garde poetry in English, and how this author contributes to contemporary avant garde poetry in a unique and notable way, is worth considering? I have found another source about the "nomadic" avant garde poetry of this author, in Polish, from a major Polish publisher and arts organisation. I will add this as well. I have been trying to extensively research the small world of avant garde poetry and in writing this article I have tried to include sources that are not directly related to the author. However, after researching this topic for quite a few years, it seems most of these poets collaborate with each other on artistic projects. Are those potential sources always unreliable? In terms of the author's connection to Steven J Fowler, it seems he is an avant-garde arts organiser and is not directly connected to the author/poet, but rather facilitates events, collaborations and so on with major backing from reliable UK arts organisations. Any help with editing this article is highly appreciated.

Thanks, Rasala Ewa (talk) 08:14, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I have changed the opening to the article to read: "Marcus Slease (1974) is a contemporary avant-garde poet and performer from Portadown, Northern Ireland." I am unsure of his nationality? Originally the article stated he was "an Irish poet." This was based on the following source that lists Irish poets in translation. Anyone have suggestions in terms of nationality? Better to leave it as "poet from Northern Ireland?" Rasala Ewa (talk) 08:43, 29 May 2018 (UTC)— Rasala Ewa (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 06:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 14:46, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• Delete Given the perfection of "Marcus Slease" as a pen name for a contemporary poet, and the fact that page creator User:Rasala Ewa doesn't know where he's from, we should consider the possibility that this is a pen name; which would make it less likely that we could find stuff like news reports about the writing contest he won in high school. Be that as it may, the fact remains that, as Nom states, the sourcing is of very poor quality, mostly primary. A news search turns up nothing at all: [1]. Not even the WP:MILL short reports of a reading in some local paper that minor contemporary poets have. Overstuffing a page with PRIMARY and other inadequate sources does not help.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:09, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Note that this is a new page and that page creator User:Rasala Ewa is an editor whose career at Wikipedia. consists solely of editing this page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• KeepAgain, the major review of Marcus Slease's poetry is in Jacket 2. Associated with the University of Pennsylvania, hosted by the Kelly Writers House and PennSound. This is THE major source for contemporary avant garde poetry in English. What could I compare it too? For mainstream music, maybe Rolling Stone? Of course there could always be more secondary sources from newspaper articles. I can see your point. However, given that there is a major review, and there is major backing from very well established arts and cultural institutions for performances in major cultural institutions in the United Kingdom, Prague, Ireland, and other places, and major writing commissions from some of these major arts institutions, I think there is a very strong case for notoriety. Please check the wikipedia link to Jacket 2 in the article. Also, please check the cultural institutions referenced in the article. Maybe these performances should be edited under the heading awards or commissions? There are a lot of reviews for poetry and other arts written in 1000s of online and print magazines. There are also more and more awards. Everyone has an award. They often don't carry much weight. There are also hundreds of wikipedia articles stuffed with fluffed up reviews (secondary sources) of art, poetry etc. It is all part of the marketing game. They don't seem to carry much weight. However, Jacket 2 is a major publication and again a major review. I would hope notoriety does not consist of quickly counting how many reviews are from secondary sources or doing a quick news search for small local newspapers etc. As for the idea of a pen name, please read the article more carefully and check the sources. There are lots of references to Marcus Slease in terms of biography (his education and degrees are under the name "Marcus Slease"). The question about nationality was more a political question. The writer is from Northern Ireland. I have established that. Some people from Northern Ireland identify as Irish and others as British. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I have been working on a phd on contemporary avant garde poetry and attempted an article on this writer previously. I tried to use much more extensive referencing in this article. However, perhaps the article has too many references to primary sources and needs some cutting? Maybe it could be reduced to something shorter? Maybe more like some of these articles?

Of course, I am not arguing those articles are better or worse in terms of notoriety, only that they are sometimes shorter with less references overall, especially to primary sources, and could be used as an example for cutting/editing this article? Rasala Ewa (talk) 06:06, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

That's your 2nd Keep vote. Spleodrach (talk) 17:53, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

• Delete - per nom, not notable. Spleodrach (talk) 17:54, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.