Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of unreleased Michael Jackson material

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Cleanup seems warranted, but that is not a reason for deletion, and I don't see very much appetite for a merge. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 12:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of unreleased Michael Jackson material[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I know it may sound like somewhat a joke, me nominating a featured list for deletion, but hold your speedy close horses and listen to my argument. The top part is certainly factual, accurate, reliable and true, but the actual list part? I don't think so. I believe the songs listed are mostly hoaxes, and so a list with such dubious and untrustworthy information should rightfully be deleted Bonkers The Clown (talk) 13:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They all seem to be referenced. What is your justification for calling them hoaxes or questioning their accuracy? Do you have a source saying they're fake or the sources are unreliable? I don't see how we can delete this as a hoax without any proof that it is a hoax. --Colapeninsula (talk) 19:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They all seem to be referenced. Sigh. Anything can be technically referenced, but the thing is whether the source referenced has any context with the statement it backs up. Example: President Barack Obama likes going to Hawaii.(Reference given: Almanac of the Sun and Norway, page 193 ?!) get my point?! Apparently, you didn't look carefully at the list, you just barely glanced through it. Actual example from the list:

"11 P.M."* Michael Jackson and Bradley Buxer
Written and recorded in 2009 during Michael Jackson's This Is It rehearsal
Also known as "Eleven P.M."

Reference given for this statement: Halstead, pp. 194–195, published BEFORE 2009. So, Halstead predicts the future? Get my point?

If you actually scrutinise the whole list, you will realise its trustability and accuracy.... Bonkers The Clown (talk) 04:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read the book, but there is a second edition published after Jackson's death.[1] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:27, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and clean-up: it's possible that there is some unverified, even false material here. I doubt it, but it's possible. But AFD isn't clean-up, and there's undoubtedly a ton of coverage about Michael Jackson's unreleased material. Meets the WP:GNG. If anyone needs help removing false or unverifiable material, visit some method of dispute resolution. Vcessayist (talk) 00:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to List of songs recorded by Michael Jackson. There is no way generally a list of unreleased songs can be notable in their own right, therefore any such list must fail WP:NSONGS and WP:GNG. Michael Jackson is notable but that notability is not inherited by anything and everything he did. Merging, as I have suggested means the information can be kept (subject to necessary pruning of hoaxes etc. as Bonkers the Clown as pointed out) and solves the very arbitrary difference between "recorded" and "released." --Richhoncho (talk) 12:10, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge I second that. Sysmithfan (talk) 22:15, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~Keep~~ I would have opted to go for speedy keep, but I won't as per the nominator's request. AfD is not for cleanup. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 13:39, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This case seems more than just clean up. We're looking at very obvious hoaxes... So. Bonkers The Clown (talk) 07:58, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I had a second thought on that, and I guess that I am not the best one to comment here. I would like to wait for some other guys with a good knowledge of the topic to comment. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 10:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Bonkers The Clown: Which ones are obvious hoaxes? The only song you've mentioned so far as a possible hoax is "Eleven P.M." but you did so on the grounds that the cited source was published before the song was recorded. However, the cited source has a second edition which was published after Jackson's death. So, so far, you haven't given us a single bona fide example of a hoax. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 10:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict) Good choice, but there's no need to call in the experts. Look at most of the so-called "unreleased songs" mentioned (i.e. 11 P.M, Silent Spring, Pajamas, Michael's Affirmation, Lady of Summer, Innocent Man, Just Remember, Don't Make Me Stay, etc.) ALL allegedly written during Jacko's 2009 This Is It rehearsal. Wow, Michael sure had some busy rehearsal, writing that many songs in that short a time span! And look, what a great surprise! A source published BEFORE 2009 is used as a reference for songs written DURING 2009! Also notice how a few pages of Halstead's books are being excessively used as a reference. Halstead, pp. 309–332 is used, what, more than 40 times?! Bonkers The Clown (talk) 10:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One more point. I know afd isn't cleanup, but isn't it fishy, the way some sentences are written... Examples, actual text, no changes (such things make me wonder whether the list was written by a fan):

I Look To You
Written by R Kelly and Recorded in 2007.(The Caps, notice the Caps!)
Originally Known as "Coming To You"
One of the songs Jackson worked on with R Kelly and Then Later gave it To Whintey For Her Next Album.(The Caps! The Caps! And who's "Whintey?")
Later Recorded By Whitney Houston For Her 2009 Album
Not to be confused with Marcus Williams Demo That He Recorded In 2010

People of the World
The song was first released by the Japanese band J-FRIENDS(Now that's news... That's fake.)
Snippet of Michael's Version leaked in 2011 (Notice how Jackson is referred to as "Michael", instead of "Jackson". Certainly a tone of writing a MJ fan would adopt.)
2nd Snippet leaked September 2012, But can't be determine if it's Michael due to the Low Quality.

Point is, the Halstead sources do not divulge on the alleged "2009 This Is It" songs given. Do verify my claim. Bonkers The Clown (talk) 10:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep. I'll agree that some of the material here has drifted to an inappropriate tone. But that's a cleanup issue (and maybe an issue for WP:FAR), not for AFD. On the other hand, I find your objections to the primary content lacking on the merits. As has already been mentioned, the correct citation for the Halstead work should be to Michael Jackson For The Record - 2nd Edition Revised and Expanded by Chris Cadman and Craig Halstead, published September 18, 2009 (isbn 978-0755204786). Time travel is not required. Additionally, the release of "People of the World" by J-Friends is not fake, as a cursory search revealed. That band was a charity supergroup, assembled from a number of other Japanese bands to raise money after the Kobe earthquake. Jackson did indeed write songs for them, including this one (sources claim Jackson also recorded a version, hence its appearance on this list). I'm typically very dubious of these "unreleased material" lists, but this one is by no means a low-hanging fruit. Is there cleanup to be done? Yes. Does that constitute a valid deletion rationale? Not remotely. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 16:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Nominator claims that these items are hoaxes, but has failed to justify this. One of the reasons he gives is that songs listed are sourced to a book written before the songs were written. However, there is a second edition published after Jackson's death. Another reason the nominator gives is the capitalization used by Wikipedia editors, "The Caps, notice the Caps!". Yet another reason is that "Jackson is referred to as "Michael", instead of "Jackson"". Seriously?? I've seen conspiracy theories more convincing than this. The only thing that is a hoax is this AfD. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:36, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. :) Bonkers The Clown (talk) 06:42, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even if someone were to verify that the songs mentioned in the list were indeed real, I'd say it make more sense to redirect and merge to List of songs recorded by Michael Jackson, as mentioned above, because that page would encompass all songs by Wacko Jacko, released or unreleased. Bonkers The Clown (talk) 06:42, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:23, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:23, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and clean up As stated by others above LovelyEdit ^talk 21:59, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment First, we must get someone to verify that the songs in the list are indeed mentioned in the book. And secondly, I believe one source won't do. When it comes to subjective stuff like these, it's always best to have multiple, reliable sources. We want significant coverage. I would say that the list by itself, excluding the lengthy info above the list and the bottom part on future albums, is 85% referenced by the Halstead book only. (is that considered to be POV?) That means, as for now, the list does not quite pass WP:GNG. Bonkers The Clown (talk) 09:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.