Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of tragedy films and TV programs

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. T. Canens (talk) 02:08, 26 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of tragedy films and TV programs[edit]

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List of tragedy films and TV programs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Please see the conversation at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film#Creating a genre for where this began. While tragedy is a genre for plays of a certain era AFAIK the term is not used for films, TV programs or anime/manga. When I found the article it had this note at the top of the page. I read this as stating that WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and WP:SPECULATION are okay for articles added to the list and it also tries to justify adding tragedy as a genre to those articles. Many articles listed there are unsourced. Those that do have references seem to look for reviews that use the word tragedy in them but do not place the film in a genre called tragedy. In regards to the anime/manga films listed I found this Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 January 16#Category:Tragedy anime and manga. There was also this Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 January 16#Category:Tragedy video games. The list article was started shortly before these were closed as delete. Now the filmproject discussion finds a possible mention of tragicomedy as a new(ish) genre but, IMO, it would be better to WP:TNT this article and start fresh with a different list for those film and TV shows that meet the criteria for that term. MarnetteD|Talk 17:44, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 00:35, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 00:35, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 00:35, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as I feel that having the article deleted is acting in haste. My view point is that there was no discussion with me in how to approach the article and there was no guideline placed for me to work with. Overall I had not been notified about the discussion Creating a genre until it too late. I'm willing to work to with other editors to make it so that this article works. Yes, I do realise I did too much on my own to add to the article it's because I've personally studied the genre and regularly watch works that I feel would qualify for it. I shouldn't've added to it so much without consensus with other editors and I realise that but I can also say there was no true discussion with me for what should and shouldn't be added as well. Yes, I do agree with the fact that there's no substantial use of the Tragedy as a genre to be labeled for films and TV but there are many instances where directors and writers have personally called their own works tragedies like David Simon, Ashar Farhadi, Gen Urobuchi etc. I'm willing to place in works where the people who created them have explicitly called them tragedies and add said references to do so. Although I do say that's somewhat ridiculous that there even needs to be references because the thing is references aren't needed for other list articles of specific genres such as List of comedy-drama television series. There are very few references in that article and many other similar articles yet they're readily accepted but my article needs the same to find the same acceptance. If my article is deemed broad I'm willing to work so it's not broad and add in stuff that's substantiated so it doesn't come off as such. But I can also make a similar argument for Drama or Comedy both of those terms are just as broad and can come off as such yet, things are readily accepted as dramas and comedies without the same argument being leveled. The thing I don't completely understand is the argument that Tragedy can't apply to film and TV despite some industry professionals having called their own works tragedies like for example Darren Aronofsky and Requiem for a Dream yet drama and comedy come from the same historical root but they can be applicable to film and TV. I don't believe a genre should be put to such limitations because that doesn't seem objective. I would like to make this work and I am willing to agree to split this article in two and create another one for Tragicomedy. I feel as though both these genres have a lot to offer Wikipedia if they continue to influence many of those in the industry and are willing to create works in these genres despite it being rare. I understand I shouldn't've changed other articles and I will stop doing that but I never changed articles to discredit the other genres of that makeup the films and shows I mainly just added to because I felt they could qualify as tragedies and tragicomedies. I do have to note many of the articles of films were already labeled tragedy and tragicomedy before I even added them to my article and they were changed after controversy was provoked with mine and I trying to state that there was no consensus given to those articles before they were edited such as Macbeth (2015 film). I do feel it's rather odd that faithful film and TV adaptations of plays by Shakespeare, Euripides, Sophocles, and Aeschylus aren't labeled tragedies in their wikipedia article since such adaptations don't change the story all that much. So, I'm willing to make this article work if there's a guideline given to me. Like does the works have to fit a specific narrative structure like does the films and TV programs need to have tragic stock characters like the tragic hero or the tragic villain? Do they need to fall in line with classic narrative structure or Greek or Shakespearean tragedy? Although I feel the classic structure would be very limiting since it doesn't take into account the modern development of the genre. Do they need to be stories that deal with moral philosophy? Does the film or TV program need to invoke catharsis? Or does it just need to have been explicitly called a tragedy? If this comes off as offensive then I'm sorry I mean no offense to my fellow editors, I'm trying to objective and not trying to use any negative language. Please excuse if this is long winded. I've never written in a discussion like this before and I'm not quite sure how this works. IceBrotherhood (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For the record IB was notified of the discussion at the filmproject here User talk:IceBrotherhood#Input request on May 7th. As IB has been editing since April of 2012 they should be aware of the guidelines of the various Manual of Styles. However, the note that IB placed at the top of the articles states "Not every addition to this article needs to be referenced by sources" and does show a lack of understanding of how Wikipedia works. I'm also not sure about the claim that "tragedy and tragicomedy in modern day are unpopular genres." As has been stated neither is a term that has been applied to films, TV shows or anime/manga in the past. Wikipedia articles rely on what WP:SECONDARY reliable sources state. I don't know if IB was the creator of the "List of tragedy television programs" or either of the categories that were deleted but If they were they should be aware of the problems that this article has. I don't know if any of the other wikis might be a place for this original research but they could certainly be written up on a blog or a facebook page. MarnetteD|Talk 03:26, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
[1]. They were the creator of that article. Ajf773 (talk) 03:52, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since this is a reply directed at me MarnetteD I wish for you to please address me as I believe we can work this out. The tone by which the reply is written comes off as condescending and I deserve to be address with a degree of professionalism since Wikipedia is a place that wishes to serve and educate the public. I may not have a high degree of knowledge of the inner workings of this site but I know that at least. Yes, I did just check my notifications recently and yes you did notify me and that's failure on my part as I don't always check my notifications and have rarely been asked to join discussions before. I as an editor have not had a large amount of team related interaction with other editors. I have only had done this once before with other editors but not to this degree. And yes I have been editing since 2012 but I have not read the Manual of Styles. These are all failures on my part, I accept that. I agree with you I shouldn't've had made the claim with my note when I created this article and that too was also a mistake I made. Yes, I had created "List of tragedy television programs" but that one wasn't substantial and I was okay with it being deleted because I too saw that it wasn't as viable. But since creating this expanded version and seeing the amount of work I had put into it and the references I've applied to it I feel it's viable. I feel as though with your guys help I can make this article and possibly a separate article for Tragicomedy to meet Wikipedia's guidelines. Yes, I can say that there was a lot of original research and I'm willing to discard all of that. But you say that neither has been applied to film, TV shows and anime/manga in the past but I like to state that they have. Though not as frequently they have been applied by the creators select films, TV programs and anime/manga. Most of my references were debatable I admit that but some of my references in interviews with directors and writers explicitly stated that said film, TV program, and anime/manga/light novel were tragedies i.e. Darren Aronofsky, Asghar Farhadi, David Simon, Gen Urobuchi etc. The select references were not debatable in comparison to most of the ones I accumulated on the page. It would be a much smaller list but I'm fine with it since it would serve it's purpose more efficiently and accurately. If we choose to let it stay I feel I can work much harder to find references that are explicit like the ones I've stated. I don't know how get them to show in this discussion though cause I don't know how to do that. I wanted to create this article because I wanted to give voice to those who were enamoured by the genre enough to create films, anime and TV programs in the genre(s) and I feel that since they believe their works to be tragedies why deny that of them and many continue to adapt classic tragedies such as the plays by Shakespeare, Euripides, Sophocles etc. into films and TV as Tragedy and Tragicomedy still serves an important role in society with the lessons that they continue to teach and the philosophical questions the genre(s) are unafraid to ask about life by examining life through a lens that's not always the happiest and filled with suffering but is cathartic and hopeful (usually) in the end. IceBrotherhood (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh for the argument that said that tragedy hasn't been applied to TV programs or films. I wanted to give examples. Sons of Anarchy - 1. https://www.tvguide.com/news/sons-of-anarchy-maggie-siff-tara-death-1074527/ In this interview with Maggie Siff when discussing the season 6 finale there's a quote from Kurt Sutter and he said of Sons of Anarchy that "The show is an epic tragedy and a tragic love story." 2. https://www.eonline.com/fr/news/605326/sons-of-anarchy-boss-explains-why-that-series-finale-death-had-to-happen In this interview with Kurt Sutter he said "Yo, what we're writing here is a tragedy. It's always been a tragedy in the Shakespearean or Greek sense. It has to end tragically and we all knew that when we were getting into it." Inside Llewyn Davis - https://www.westword.com/film/oscar-isaac-on-the-screwball-tragedy-of-inside-llewyn-davis-5123034 In this interview the star of the film Inside Llewyn Davis Oscar Isaac called the film a "Screwball tragedy." The Wire - This article is titled The Wire: David Simon reflects on his modern Greek tragedy. In this interview with creator David Simon he said of The wire “We were always adjusting where characters were going to end up, what parts of Baltimore we were going to depict when, what we wanted to say with the overall theme of the show. It was a Greek tragedy done in a modernist urban way, with the city as the main character.” Requiem for a Dream - 1. http://www.papermag.com/the-needle-and-the-damage-done-requiem-for-a-dream-1425144191.html In this interview with Director Darren Aronofsky said of making Requiem that "I wanted to make a tragedy, in the classical sense." 2. In another interview about Requiem Aronofsky said "Eighty per cent of ticket sales across the world go to Hollywood movies," he points out, "and because of that, people are almost brainwashed into expecting a catharsis. But anyone who's been on the planet long enough knows that, in the end, things seldom work out OK. That's what tragedy is about. And tragedy is an art form that's been killed by Hollywood. I mean, with Requiem, the catharsis is really there for the audience the day after they've seen the movie." A Seperation - http://moviecitynews.com/2012/02/the-gronvall-files-asghar-farhadi-writerdirector-of-a-separation/ Director Asghar Faahadi talked about his film A Seperation in this interview talked about how his film is a modern tragedy he said and I quote "When I was working in theatre I was reading a lot of tragedies. But this kind of tragedy—if you want to compare it to the classic tragedies of the past—has one historic difference. In a classic tragedy, there is a war between good and evil, but in modern tragedies, the war is between good and good. In classic tragedies, you hope the bad guy dies, so you feel better. But in this modern tragedy, you don’t know which character you want to win, which one you want to lose, and you’re probably not going to feel good about either. There’s also another difference between the classic tragedy and the modern tragedy. The weakness–the Achilles heel–of the classic tragic hero comes from within himself. For example, Hamlet doubts too much. King Lear is not very with it. Macbeth is too hungry for power. But for the characters of the modern tragedy, their weaknesses don’t come from within themselves; they come from the environment, the pressure that the environment puts on them." Leaving Las Vegas - https://web.archive.org/web/20180705175416/http://www.recommended.co.nz/movies/beautiful-sadness-leaving-las-vegas/14/38 In this review of Leaving Las Vegas what is said of the film is "This tragedy is not for the weak of heart or those who have ever lost a loved one to this terrible disease as there is no mercy and no sugar coating to the horror that alcoholism entails." Manchester by the Sea - https://www.reporternews.com/story/life/faith/2017/03/10/god-removes-shame-even-lee-chandler/98924316/ This review of Manchester by the Sea said "But, Manchester By the Sea is no romance. It is a tragedy that slowly unfolds through flashbacks in the mind of Lee Chandler, the main character played by Affleck, as he wrestles with his brother’s death and guardianship of his brother’s son."

These guys see the value of the genre of tragedy because tragedy isn't about being "melancholy" it's a genre that's definitely sad in nature but it's also about hope and learning that you can survive the sorrows of life and continue to move towards the future. It's a genre that admits that life isn't always happy and that it's filled with a lot of hardship and suffering but that it's still worth living. I can definitely say their views of their own work is objective. I know that I most likely won't convince anyone here but if I do and you guys vote to keep this article around I know that I can make it a worthy article. Plus if anyone votes to save it and wants to work with me to improve it then I would look forward to working with you guys, I believe that it would be a worthwhile experience and with more help then it could be perhaps become great article. That way I can improve my skills as an editor. Anyways even if this article doesn't survive I can say at least I fought for something I believed in, I can say that I didn't lay down and gave up without even trying. I should've learnt to create a wikipedia article better before this but I guess I was overzealous, I can get that way when I get passionate about something. You know Wikipedia shouldn't have as bad of a reputation that it does if there are people like you guys working hard to keep it legit. This was quite the experience, discussions like these can definitely be applied to the real world when you have co-workers and teamwork is needed. I may be on the losing end but it was a nice experience nonetheless. IceBrotherhood (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IceBrotherhood Thanks for setting out your thinking as you have. Maybe the core of the problem with this article is where you say ’I can definitely say their views of their own work is objective.’ That’s not a standard that can possibly make a viable article. If the creators of films and programs described their work as “unique’ that would not be a basis for an encyclopaedia article ‘List of Unique Films and TV programs’. Likewise if they described them as ‘heroic’, ‘adventurous’ or something similar that would not serve. That’s a subjective evaluation and no amount of collaboration with other editors can get around that. Tragedy isn’t a genre like ‘scifi’ or ‘western’ so it’s pretty much impossible to arrive at a consensus of what is tragic. I think Zhang Yimou’s Curse of the Golden Flower is a tragedy. Do you? Should it be included or not? A possible basis for an encyclopaedic list would be films or tv shows where the term ‘tragedy’ is in their title, or where there was a well-established and well documented critical consensus that they are tragedies. Otherwise I can’t see how this article could be improved. Mccapra (talk) 10:08, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen Curse of the Golden Flower. So I can't determine that. My thinking is how isn't Tragedy a genre when people such as Aristotle and Shakespeare have laid grounds for the definition of how tragedy functions. Tragedy is a genre of suffering that has an air of depressing the same way we know dramas are serious, comedy is funny, horror is scary it elicits empathy and sorrow from us that results in catharsis the cleansing and purging of our own negative emotions. That can result from many of the basic storylines of tragedy such as revenge, downfall, reversal of fortune, grief, horror like spectacle that doesn't induce fear but pity like instead of witnessing the massacre of people firsthand but happening upon the bodies and seeing the aftermath, misfortune, being born into unfortunate circumstances, rape, error in judgement, backstabbing, learning to get over a death of a loved one, not being able to fight an unfortunate fate, loss, abuse, being framed for a crime you didn't commit, taking no pleasure in inflicting suffering on others thus describing the tragic villain, doing immoral things for moral reasons and it hurts you inside emotionally thus defining the tragic hero, suicide, loving someone who doesn't love you back or is toxic for you, fatal flaws/hamartia getting the better of a character an example is their pride or their beliefs, mistreatment, loss of self control such as through addiction or a terminal illness, being manipulated into doing things you don't want to do, curses, trying to survive in a post apocalyptic world against all the odds, being forced to make choices you don't want to, war, genocide, ostracization, facing one's own mortality, self hatred, descent into a madness/insanity etc. Overall I notice all tragedies all try to fight or cope with a sense of despair and there's no pleasure to be gained from the events that unfold before them. Drama and comedy you can get a sense of pleasure from them. Though drama is serious and operates a similar way there's still pleasure to be gained from the story and events that befall the characters in tragedy pleasure is lacking and instead filled with suffering and pain. Pleasure isn't gained from the audience except through catharsis. That by watching these negative valued events people go at least my life isn't like that and are grateful for the lives we have or from the ability to empathise with the suffering of the characters and the situations they're forced into. And of course the (usually) cathartic endings which show through all the horrible things that happen in life that there's still hope and you can move forward. Tragedies are pretty easy to define because they generally have the same stories over and over again. The human experience doesn't have too many situations where they're deemed almost entirely insufferable there's usually a sense of pleasure gained from most experiences so tragedies tend to use the same experiences over and over again. I've watched many tragedies and similar stories do recur.
I just read the synopsis to Curse of the Golden Flower and it can qualify as a tragedy. By the way there are a select films and TV programs that have critical consensus that they are tragedies but the thing is it's not widespread because tragedy's a genre that not many can enjoy on a constant so it doesn't have as large of a body but there are. I can see why because it takes a strong constitution to watch the genre on a constant basis so I was the only one in my class when asked to choose a genre and speak on it's importance to society most people chose like science fiction, fantasy, comedy, noir etc. I chose tragedy. I was given many academic books by my professor to support my view like Greek Tragedy on screen by Pantelis Michelakis or Greek tragedy into film by Kenneth MacKinnon. They're books about adaptations of Greek tragedies into film. IceBrotherhood (talk) 4:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi I just reread your comments and taken together they amount to your personal view of what constitutes a tragedy. That’s fine, but not the basis for an encyclopaedia article. Yes Aristotle wrote about it but you can’t build an article on the basis that a list of things, in your view, meets Aristotle's criteria because that’s your original research, which isn’t allowed on Wikipedia. The sourcing you’ve provided means that this article is something like ‘list of films and tv programmes that have been described at least once as a tragedy by one source’ (I understand that some items you’ve included have multiple sources). That still doesn’t meet the sourcing requirements for an article. Mccapra (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Umm... actually most of the events I described came straight from tragic plays. Most of the stuff I said have occurred in the plays written by Euripides, Sophocles, Shakespeare, Seneca etc. Also the others I described are found in plays of other tragedians. Like loss of self control through addiction occurs in a domestic tragedy by Thomas Middleton called A Yorkshire tragedy. Affairs of the state has been a mainstay of many of the old tragic plays and war and genocide fall under affairs of the state. Rape was common in many tragedies and greek legends like say Medusa being raped by Poseidon or Medea being cursed. Medea is a play by Euripides. In the Witch of Edmonton the lead character Elizabeth Sawyer was ostracized by her society prompting her to vow revenge. Being born into unfortunate circumstances is a mainstay of Shakespearean tragedy. In terms of when I said loving someone who isn't good for you that doesn't stray too far from the concept of the most famous romantic tragedies i.e. Romeo and Juliet or Antony and Cleopatra. Many characters in the tragic plays spiraled into madness because they were usually told a prophecy of their impending death at the hands of someone and they go crazy trying to prevent it and having to constantly face their own mortality. Madness is especially common in revenge tragedy plays. Suicide occurs in many of Shakespeare's plays Hamlet, Othello, Julius Caesar, Antony and Cleopatra, and Romeo and Juliet and Sophocles' tragedy Antigone, Antigone she kills herself. All the things I've listed didn't stray too far from the plays. The only thing I said that probably didn't occur in the plays would be surviving in a post apocalyptic world against all odds but that doesn't stray too far from the plays where characters strive to survive in the world against all odds and as with Senecan and Greek tragedy the world usually has supernatural elements. I didn't have to go far because the things that happen in the plays are actually stories that are easy to repeat. I should know I've seen these plays live in person many times. IceBrotherhood (talk) 15:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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