Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of tallest buildings by United Kingdom settlement

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There isn't much direct discussion of notability here, in terms of sources covering the topic. Valid concerns over the definitions used are met with reasonable arguments about the potential for improvement (and at least one !vote that is entirely devoid of substance). It's been long enough that I do not think a further relist will be helpful; if the problems of definition prove intractable, they will have more weight at a subsequent AfD. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of tallest buildings by United Kingdom settlement[edit]

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List of tallest buildings by United Kingdom settlement (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Article is a mixture of Wikipedia:Synthesis and Original Research. Eopsid (talk) 11:50, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:57, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:57, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:57, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment - Another problem with the article is its lack of definition for settlement. There isnt really a formal and consistent definition in the United Kingdom anyway. Eopsid (talk) 18:38, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment -couldn't this be added to a general list of tallest buildings in the UK, as a sortable table column? to this page List_of_tallest_buildings_in_the_United_Kingdom Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:26, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This seems a perfectly valid list to me. No synthesis or OR here. Possibly rename to List of tallest buildings by town or city in the United Kingdom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The problem is with the lack of definition for town or city or settlement in the UK. The list makes no attempt to define it rendering it meaningless. Eopsid (talk) 10:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I fail to see why this is a problem. The terms town and city are very clearly defined in the United Kingdom, probably more than most other countries. I agree that there's no real reason to restrict the list to settlements with more than 100,000 people, hence my suggested renaming. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:49, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • The list defines it as anything over 100K. In practice cities in england and wales are extremely well defined. Scotland slightly less so. Town is again well defined if perhaps not entirely logical due to local politics (there are a number of oversized villages but since no one has tried to add Cottingham this doesn't appear to be an issue).©Geni (talk) 14:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • comment: can you explain how English towns are well defined. Just thinking of Bournemouth as an example it has no good definition. It's part of a district with other towns but there is no formal definition for Bournemouth Town. The problem is that there are some well defined towns which are civil parishes but there are lots of towns which are in unparished areas and hence have no good definition. Eopsid (talk) 16:21, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • While Bournemouth appears to be one of the messier cases the Borough created by the 1890 Royal Charter continues to maintain a legal existence through the charter trustees.©Geni (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • Exactly. You have to look at history as well. Any settlement that used to be a borough or urban district or which currently has a town council is without doubt a town. Although there are indeed others which are commonly referred to as towns but which have no legal basis for that claim. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
              • The issue is that we are discussing the definition of settlement because the article in its current format leaves that open to interpretation. Crowsus (talk) 13:00, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                • Actually, the issue is that AfD is not cleanup. The issue of whether the article needs editing or not is completely separate from the issue of whether it's a notable topic or not, which is what we're discussing here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:21, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                  • That's a fair point, but if it can't be explained how one of the two axes has been derived, then it does sway into the realm of Synth and OR as the nomination asserts. Crowsus (talk) 14:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: agree the definition does not make much sense in relation to any similar list. There are 65 entries, but the link used to define what is referred to as a settlement, ESPON metropolitan areas in the United Kingdom, defined only 46 areas; that had a higher cut-off of 150k rather than 100k, but then there is no source to define the 'missing' 19 - I haven't checked if the first 46 entries on the Tallest Buildings list matches, possibly not. There is also the fact that the ESPON list is now 20 years old. List of urban areas in the United Kingdom is more recent - published 2013 based on the 2011 census - and that has the same 100k cut-off, but has 76 entries! So based on that, we are missing 11. I feel that could be used to adapt the list and apply it more consistently than deleting outright, but it's not really something I'd be keen to volunteer for. Crowsus (talk) 10:54, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would support moving to largest buildings in urban areas in the United Kingdom that has a better definition. I can do the work to move it too. Eopsid (talk) 16:21, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I support this idea, it would hopefully be fairly straightforward to align the entries here with the entries there, and 11 to be 'found' and added. I suggest using Emporis as a reference for the list of each area to demonstrate which is the tallest in each (particularly where no list of its own exists) but I'm not sure they work on any 'urban area' categorisation similar to the existing list here. So that would be verging into OR again to calculate which towns are in which area in a few cases (e.g the likes of Oldham, Wolverhampton and Bradford on the list would not be the tallest in their respective area)... Crowsus (talk) 13:00, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are actually hundreds of towns and cities in the UK, but only a few of them have buildings high enough to be worth recording. Every settlement on this list has town or city status. But clearly it's a work in progress. That does not make it an invalid list, as the whole of Wikipedia is a work in progress. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:52, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • The criteria needs to be properly defined. As the nominator has pointed out, the term settlement is used but not clarified, and as I have highlighted above, neither the link used nor a more recent related list corresponds to the number of entries on this list. I would agree that it is something that can be overcome rather than evidence that it's fatally flawed and should be deleted, but the 'work in progress' doesn't wash. The article dates from 2010 and as only had minor adjustments and corrections since then. As you say, there are hundreds of cities and towns in the UK, so why does the article have 65 entries? There is no evidence that there are specifically 65 places of over 100,000 residents so why has that number been arrived at? There are 69 designated cities but several of those are ceremonial/historical with populations well below 100k, so again that doesn't tie in with the entries on this Buildings list. And where is the evidence that each of these buildings is the tallest in each place? Most have a ref simply for that building, and there are only 24 'List of tallest building in City' articles, so even assuming those are all correct and can be used as a guide, still 40 to be fixed. Again, not an insurmountable problem, but here we are at a deletion discussion so it's something that does have to be remedied because as things stand, the quality is poor. Crowsus (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, this is a very useful article. Davidgoodheart (talk) 03:49, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please expand, I'm actually curious to find out how it's useful... Crowsus (talk) 13:00, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:39, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong keep - One of the for AFD today I have seen I definitely think ought to stay. Granted it is a list, but this is precisely the sort of random fact one may enjoy learning about in a 'random article' pop-up, or may be useful of its own accord. May warrant moving if someone can decide a more useful place, but it should definitely stay!Such-change47 (talk) 08:42, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep and comment - I have some concerns about this, but on balance think it could be a useful article. I do however wonder about the name - settlement is very vague I think. Something like towns and cities with populations of over 100,000 might be better, though I am not sure what the best wording for that in a title would be without making it too long. Dunarc (talk) 21:15, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 04:00, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'm happy it's kept, as the sort of interesting-trivia stuff that one expects to see in an Encyclopaedia, but I'm more concerned about the definition, taken from the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, which excludes church spires. Since nearly all churches in the UK have some sort of tower or spire, this stricture basically excludes all ecclesiastical buildings from the list, which seems very arbitrary. Why should a clock-tower on an otherwise rather short town hall qualify it as a tall building, while a substantial pointy bit on the end of a church, similarly equipped with a clock, doesn't? I personally feel that our readers, given an article on the tallest buildings, would expect to find the tallest buildings (not a somewhat shorter building that doesn't happen to be a church). Since the article is UK-based, and the Council is North American, perhaps the Council's definition doesn't really fit the UK's historical architecture. Or perhaps we should rename/move the article to Tallish-but-not-the-tallest-buildings by vaguely-defined area in the UK? Elemimele (talk) 12:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The arguments for keep largely rely on the article being useful or the article being random information that might be included in a pop-up encyclopedia. Both of which are true about this article; however, none of that means that this is not a result of WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. I also am concerned about what the cutoff for this article would be, as in why is it at 100,000 specifically? I think that the indicated issues combined with wikipedia's standard for inclusion not being utility, but notability which lead me to my argument for deletion. snood1205 22:37, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete I too am having problems with the qualifiers being tossed into this. First off, I must correct one misconception: the CTBUH criteria specifically and explicitly include spires, so I have to question whether the exclusion comes from. Second, there is the population limit, which, as others have noted, seems arbitrary. But besides that, half of this is like one of those clickbait things, and half of it is a database query. I do not see us have having a mission to satisfy either. If our point is to satisfy bar bet questions or slice up statistical data so, well, writing separate articles for each of the possible inquiries is a poor approach; but I do not think an encyclopedia as we have been writing it can address that mission in any case. Mangoe (talk) 03:50, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, Mangoe, based on that, in case this list survives, I've replaced Norwich's city hall with its cathedral, a much taller building. Elemimele (talk) 11:12, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    More follow-up, my cathedral replacement got reverted on grounds that the lead excludes spires. Since, as Mangoe pointed out, this is an arbitrary exclusion that doesn't come from the purported source, should this list survive AfD, the lead needs to be changed either to distance itself from the Council on Tall Buildings criteria, or to adopt them properly, rather than misquoting them. The Council has three different criteria, basically height-to-architectural-top-excluding-antennae/flagpoles, height to highest occupied floor, and height-to-very-tip-including-twiddly-bits. I'd suggest we use (1) or (3), both of which include spires, as the highest occupied floor is unlikely to be documented in many cases, and even if it is, the Council haven't determined whether they mean the floor or ceiling of the highest occupied floor. If the list decides to go its own sweet way and ignore all "official" definitions, embracing arbitrary exclusions, then it should be deleted, as that would cross the line from encyclopaedic to random synthesis. Elemimele (talk) 13:27, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: How accurate is the list? Is it kept updated? Altus House, Leeds doesn't yet get a mention, though its article asserts it to be the tallest building in Leeds / West Yorkshire / Yorkshire. PamD 16:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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